[nagdu] Going out during training
Buddy Brannan
buddy at brannan.name
Wed Feb 2 22:47:03 UTC 2011
Hi Lisa and Albert,
In brief, please stick around. Pete doesn't speak for the rest of us, and I daresay he's taken our philosophy and turned it into something it is very definitely not.
--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
On Feb 2, 2011, at 4:46 PM, GARY STEEVES wrote:
> Hi Lisa:
>
> What a great message. I was going to write a long winded reply but realize that I think I just need to say I agree with you. Certainly organizations like the nfb have been helpful in moving blindness related issues forward but they can also be divisive. I guess the key thing I have learned over the years that is just because we are blind does not mean we agree. If I use a dog or a cane, if I enjoy beeping crosswalks, if I sometimes ask for help across a dangerous intersection and enjoy movies with dvs ... none of these things make me a better person or better blind person, they just mean I have learned to use the tools that work for me and I speak out when I feel it is necessary. I try to know my rights and the laws so I can be a force for change, like those who helped create those laws, and I generally try to be a positive contributer to society in whatever way that is relevant to me.
>
> Hurray to being an individual and hurray for tolerence.
>
> Enjoy the day and my warm thoughts go out to all of you stuck in the grip of winter. It is this time of year that always remind me why I love living in Vancouver where there is little snow but sometimes too much rain. :)
>
> Gary
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lisa belville <missktlab1217 at frontier.com>
> Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011 1:11 pm
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>
>> Peter, I must be missing something, because I fail to see how
>> these policies
>> are custodial. Have you talked to sighted people who have
>> gone through the various versions of military boot camps?
>> They have rules in place, and God help you if you break one of
>> them. But you don't hear them whining about how the rules
>> are custodial or paternalistic. Most of them have joined
>> whatever branch of service by choice and want to progress
>> through their training. They either go with the program or
>> they leave. The purpose of this example is to illustrate
>> that policies need to be in place in order to achieve a specific
>> goal in a set time frame.
>>
>> People don't work with their green dogs off campus because they
>> know little about how that dog
>> reacts to certain situations. Why would any person who is
>> serious about working with that new dog want to jeopardize the
>> future of their team by possibly getting into a situation they
>> cannot handle due to this information. Consider also that
>> many people getting guide dogs have never had a dog before,
>> even as a pet. Why should that innocent dog be subject to
>> someone's inability to
>> properly work with it based on their inexperience with a
>> dog? Can you imagine how the public would react to
>> this? They already cry abuse when they see us give a leash
>> correction even if it's necessary.
>>
>> To revisit my military analogy, they don't just give people guns
>> and the keys to a tank and let them play war games during basic
>> training for the same types of reasons.
>>
>> Those of us in training for our successor dogs can also have
>> issues learning their dog's personality quirks. I didn't
>> know how to read the body language of either of my dogs for the
>> first week at least. Having someone there to give instant
>> feedback about what I was feeling through the harness and leash
>> was immensely helpful. so was the support and
>> socialization I got from others in the class with me.
>> Nights were spent learning how to groom, pill, and entertain my
>> dog. I personally didn't have the energy to go off campus
>> to do anything else. The thought that I needed to assert
>> myself as a blind person because I was being oppressed didn't
>> really occur to me because I knew that this period of training
>> would last for only a specific time period, and when it was
>> over, I would be on my own with the dog, so I'd better
>> concentrate on working and learning how we worked. I did
>> leave on the weekends, but was responsible enough to return in
>> time to feed and relieve my dog. Frankly, it was a much
>> needed break for me and the dog. I didn't feel oppressed,
>> but then, I'm not always looking for a reason to feel oppressed
>> or discriminated against. I suppose someone with this
>> mentality can find discrimination and opposition every place if
>> they do nothing else but look for it.
>>
>> Maybe it's not like this for you, but I'd bet that for 99.9% of
>> us training guide dogs and working with them as the end user is
>> incredibly time consuming for all involved. Every
>> component of the highly condensed training is useful for forming
>> a bond that will hopefully lead to the formation of a safe and
>> successful team.
>>
>> If we used your philosophy, people would just pick up a dog and
>> come and go at random, not showing up for training classes or
>> lectures. this is a recipe for failure. I'm not a
>> dog trainer. I could never do the owner trainer thing like
>> Julie and Tami have. That's why I go to a school. I
>> don't want to get into the nitty gritty details of training
>> because there are more facets to me than being a person who
>> happens to be blind and who happens to prefer the use of a big
>> black dog over the long, white cane.
>>
>> I might take your stance a bit more seriously if you managed to
>> convince the leaders at NFB centers to allow dogs in every
>> aspect of their training and
>> not only during certain areas or training classes.
>>
>> This is a policy I find offensive and paternalistic because it
>> implies that I, as a dog user, am obviously not adjusted to my
>> blindness, i.e., inferior and in need of training simply because
>> I use a dog. I don't measure up, I'm not the perfect model
>> blind person and I obviously need mommy and daddy NFB to show me
>> the error of my ways.
>>
>> This attitude is just as repulsive, more, in fact, than having
>> some sighted person tell me I'm a poor blind person who will
>> never amount to anything. The NFB's so-called philosophy has
>> done nothing but divide and alienate those of us it is
>> supposedly in place to help.
>>
>> In my opinion, you and those who feel as you do would be better
>> off spending your time getting your organization to see dog use
>> as equal to the use of the long white cane. Why should
>> guide dog schools take you seriously if you can't even get your
>> own organization to treat you like the equals you insist you are?
>>
>> And don't tell me to remember Daytona or to go to a national
>> convention. I've been to national conventions and have served on
>> local chapters, so I've seen things first hand and I've spent
>> time trying to change it. As long as people like you can
>> justify discrimination within your own organization and bully
>> those of us who dare to think differently, nothing will change.
>>
>> Lisa
>>
>> The handle on my recliner apparently doesn't qualify as an exercise
>> machine...who knew ?
>> Lisa Belville
>> missktlab1217 at frontier.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue"
>> <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National
>> Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 1:19 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>
>>
>>> Hello Gary and everyone,
>>>
>>> And there in lies the problem. I thought we
>> attended guide dog training
>>> programs to learn to be top-notch guide dog handlers whether
>> with an
>>> instructor or out alone with the dog. Students attending our
>> centers are
>>> expected to use their canes whenever they travel be it on their
>> own, with
>>> another student, or with a cane travel instructor. It should be
>> the same
>>> when one attends a guide dog program. Such low expectations and
>> custodial>policies would never be tolerated at an NFB-run
>> facility. If you continue
>>> to
>>> lap up the excuses put four the by guide dog programs
>> concerning>unaccompanied travel with a dog prior to graduation
>> remember Daytona.
>>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "GARY STEEVES"
>> <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>>To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 11:07 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi:
>>>
>>> Yes, at my school they allowed people to go out for short
>> periods of time
>>> in
>>> the evening. All the girls in my class were under 18 so
>> generally they
>>> were
>>> accompanied by a staff member but this got more lax as the
>> program went
>>> on.
>>> No one was allowed to leave the school property with the dog
>> until after
>>> they graduated without being accompanied by a trainer mainly
>> for liability
>>> and safety reasons as others have stated.
>>>
>>> Like others had mentioned, I was there to get a guide dog
>> and do what was
>>> required to begin the building of a strong team. So, although
>> there was a
>>> jam session I wanted to attend shortly after I got Bogart I did
>> not do
>>> this
>>> since I knew it would not help us move forward. However after
>> about ten
>>> days
>>> I felt, and the trainers agreed, that it would be okay to leave
>> Bogart for
>>> some periods of time. I don't think the school was ever trying
>> to take
>>> away
>>> my freedom but they wanted to be sure, especially with poodles,
>> that we
>>> developed a strong bond before we left and we demonstrated our
>> ability to
>>> be
>>> responsible in intregrating the dogs into our lifes.
>>>
>>> Gary
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
>>> Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 4:35 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>
>>>> Peter, I must respectfully say that what you are saying isn't
>>>> the point. Yes, maybe the schools can let you go out some
>>>> sooner, but the issue isn't really about the people so much as
>>>> the dogs. The dogs are a little unnerved by the new experience
>>>> they are having; the trust isn't there; should you really be
>>>> able to go out with that dog right off because you are a
>>>> competent adult? There are liability issues, too, and
>>>> everyone there isn't as prepared to go off campus. This creates
>>>> sort of a class system in my opinion. And, as Janine pointed
>>>> out, at some of the schools there are logistic issues for this.
>>>>
>>>> Cindy
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 1, 2011, at 5:17 PM, Peter Donahue wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello again everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>> What I'm hearing is, "Your expectations are
>>>> too high. Lower them because
>>>>> blind people are too stupid to handle new dogs in unfamiliar
>>>> environments.
>>>>> After all they're too helpless and can't be trusted to travel
>>>> alone with new
>>>>> dogs in strange situations. Such is beyond their capabilities.
>>>> We need to
>>>>> guide them every step of the way."
>>>>>
>>>>> People we just staged a demonstration last
>>>> Saturday of what is possible
>>>>> when a belief in the abilities and capabilities of the blind
>>>> is shared by
>>>>> all. Driving that Ford Escape in a public venue such as the
>>>> Daytona
>>>>> International Speedway was a monumental achievement. Things
>>>> could have gone
>>>>> horribly wrong but they didn't. Mark Riccobono successfully
>>>> navigated the
>>>>> track and by doing so shattered many misconceptions concerning
>>>> the blind. If
>>>>> he had people holding him back as is happening among our guide
>>>> dog users he
>>>>> never would have had that chance to prove what can be
>>>> accomplished when the
>>>>> blind have access to information. It would have been a
>>>> tremendous loss for
>>>>> us all. How sad. He never drove that car on the Daytona Track
>>>> until last
>>>>> Saturday yet he performed a flawless demonstration in front of
>>>> thousands of
>>>>> people.
>>>>>
>>>>> I find it disgusting that we can shine our
>>>> lights for Mark's achievement
>>>>> yet we have lowered expectations when it comes to guide dog
>>>> training. If
>>>>> Mark could drive that car in an unfamiliar environment those
>>>> in guide dog
>>>>> training that choose to do so should have the opportunities to
>>>> work their
>>>>> dogs during off-hours. As I stated previously the rule should
>>>> be if a team
>>>>> can't complete x amount of hours of unaccompanied travel
>>>> during their
>>>>> training the blind person shouldn't be sent home with a dog.
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally I'm hearing some of this rubbish
>>>> from people that on occasions
>>>>> criticized the NFB for not doing enough to help guide dog
>>>> users. How can we
>>>>> do more if the organization's hands are tied by those
>>>> unwilling to allow the
>>>>> imagination juices to flow rather than buying in to the voodoo
>>>> dished out by
>>>>> our guide dog programs. I'd suggest that the next time someone
>>>> suggests a
>>>>> possible remedy to address and solve guide dog-related issues
>>>> be they with
>>>>> training, access issues, etc remember what happened in Daytona
>>>> last
>>>>> Saturday.
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "GARY STEEVES"
>> <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the
>> National Association of Guide Dog
>>>> Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 1:50 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Tracy:
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with you. During my class I started off slowly leaving
>>>> Bogart alone
>>>>> in the room and would see how he reacted. I sort of broke the
>>>> rules first by
>>>>> showing up at the end of day meeting without Bogart. My room
>>>> was right
>>>>> across from the meeting room so I could hear what he was
>>>> doing. I live in an
>>>>> apartment so it was crucial that I could have confidence in
>>>> him that he
>>>>> wouldn't bark if I left him home alone. I think my instructors
>>>> trusted me
>>>>> and how I worked with Bogart so I think they got what I was
>>>> trying to do.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Once he was pretty good I did nip down to the bar for a beer
>>>> or two but he
>>>>> was never lefr alone for more than 4 hours.
>>>>>
>>>>> The othergirls in the class were all under 18 and they were
>>>> interested in
>>>>> checking out boys at the local coffee shop. It was
>>>> actually Bogart's
>>>>> brother, Byran, who did all the barking which did worry me a
>>>> bit with
>>>>> regards to Bogart but so far he seems very good in this regard.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think the girls should have been sent home but I think
>>>> that if the
>>>>> dog wasn't doing good being left alone then they should have
>>>> had to work at
>>>>> it to build up the dogs trust that you'd come back.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gary
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>>>>> Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 11:23 am
>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think that going out with a brand-new dog, in an
>>>>>> unfamiliar area,
>>>>>> during class is a good idea, certainly not in the first couple
>>>>>> weeks. It
>>>>>> takes a while for the dog and person to adjust to each other,
>>>>>> and, until
>>>>>> that happens, the guiding/following may not be all it
>> should be.
>>>>>> As to going out without the dog, I wonder what people think
>>>>>> should happen
>>>>>> in the following:
>>>>>> I was rather shocked by an episode Gary related about his
>>>>>> class. People
>>>>>> were free to go out after the training day, and it sounded like
>>>>>> one woman
>>>>>> was making a habit of taking off, leaving her dog in the room,
>>>>>> where it
>>>>>> started barking its head off, and other people repeatedly
>> had to
>>>>>> go and
>>>>>> deal with the problem.
>>>>>> If people are free to go out, and their dog causes a problem
>>>> in their
>>>>>> absence, I think it would be reasonable to give them a warning,
>>>>>> and, if it
>>>>>> happens again, send them home. After all, they're in class
>>>>>> to learn how
>>>>>> to handle a dog, and if bar-hopping is more important...out
>>>> they go!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It did sound nice in Gary's class, to be able to nip down
>> to the
>>>>>> cornerand have a brewski. But TSE is too far out in the
>>>>>> country for that. GDB
>>>>>> too, for that matter.
>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>> info for nagdu:
>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rainshadowmusic%40shaw.ca>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>> info for nagdu:
>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>> info for nagdu:
>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>> info for nagdu:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rainshadowmusic%40shaw.ca
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> info for
>>> nagdu:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> info for
>>> nagdu:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/missktlab1217%40frontier.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> info for nagdu:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rainshadowmusic%40shaw.ca
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/buddy%40brannan.name
More information about the NAGDU
mailing list