[nagdu] Going out during training

[Lisa belville]

Uh-huh.  Me thinks you totally missed the point.  It's just as well.


The handle on my recliner apparently doesn't qualify as an exercise 
machine...who knew ?
Lisa Belville
missktlab1217 at frontier.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training


> Hello Lisa and everyone,
>
>    I'm talking about guide dog training not the military which on occasion
> engages in top-secret and covert operations. If NFB center students are
> required to use their canes during class hours and in their free time to
> hone their travel skills students in guide dog training should be expected
> to do likewise. Remember Daytona.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Lisa belville" <missktlab1217 at frontier.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 2:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>
>
> Peter, I must be missing something, because I fail to see how these 
> policies
> are custodial.  Have you talked to sighted people who have gone through 
> the
> various versions of military boot camps?  They have rules in place, and 
> God
> help you if you break one of them.  But you don't hear them whining about
> how the rules are custodial or paternalistic.  Most of them have joined
> whatever branch of service by choice and want to progress through their
> training.  They either go with the program or they leave.  The purpose of
> this example is to illustrate that policies need to be in place in order 
> to
> achieve a specific goal in a set time frame.
>
> People don't work with their green dogs off campus because they know 
> little
> about how that dog
> reacts to certain situations.  Why would any person who is serious about
> working with that new dog want to jeopardize the future of their team by
> possibly getting into a situation they cannot handle due to this
> information.  Consider also that many people getting guide dogs have never
> had a dog before,
> even as a pet.  Why should that innocent dog be subject to someone's
> inability to
> properly work with it based on their inexperience with a dog?  Can you
> imagine how the public would react to this?  They already cry abuse when
> they see us give a leash correction even if it's necessary.
>
> To revisit my military analogy, they don't just give people guns and the
> keys to a tank and let them play war games during basic training for the
> same types of reasons.
>
> Those of us in training for our successor dogs can also have issues 
> learning
> their dog's personality quirks.  I didn't know how to read the body 
> language
> of either of my dogs for the first week at least.  Having someone there to
> give instant feedback about what I was feeling through the harness and 
> leash
> was immensely helpful.  so was the support and socialization I got from
> others in the class with me.  Nights were spent learning how to groom, 
> pill,
> and entertain my dog.  I personally didn't have the energy to go off 
> campus
> to do anything else.  The thought that I needed to assert myself as a 
> blind
> person because I was being oppressed didn't really occur to me because I
> knew that this period of training would last for only a specific time
> period, and when it was over, I would be on my own with the dog, so I'd
> better concentrate on working and learning how we worked.  I did leave on
> the weekends, but was responsible enough to return in time to feed and
> relieve my dog.  Frankly, it was a much needed break for me and the dog. 
> I
> didn't feel oppressed, but then, I'm not always looking for a reason to 
> feel
> oppressed or discriminated against.  I suppose someone with this mentality
> can find discrimination and opposition every place if they do nothing else
> but look for it.
>
> Maybe it's not like this for you, but I'd bet that for 99.9% of us 
> training
> guide dogs and working with them as the end user is incredibly time
> consuming for all involved.  Every component of the highly condensed
> training is useful for forming a bond that will hopefully lead to the
> formation of a safe and successful team.
>
> If we used your philosophy, people would just pick up a dog and come and 
> go
> at random, not showing up for training classes or lectures.  this is a
> recipe for failure.  I'm not a dog trainer.  I could never do the owner
> trainer thing like Julie and Tami have.  That's why I go to a school.  I
> don't want to get into the nitty gritty details of training because there
> are more facets to me than being a person who happens to be blind and who
> happens to prefer the use of a big black dog over the long, white cane.
>
> I might take your stance a bit more seriously if you managed to convince 
> the
> leaders at NFB centers to allow dogs in every aspect of their training and
> not only during certain areas or training classes.
>
> This is a policy I find offensive and paternalistic because it implies 
> that
> I, as a dog user, am obviously not adjusted to my blindness, i.e., 
> inferior
> and in need of training simply because I use a dog.  I don't measure up, 
> I'm
> not the perfect model blind person and I obviously need mommy and daddy 
> NFB
> to show me the error of my ways.
>
> This attitude is just as repulsive, more, in fact, than having some 
> sighted
> person tell me I'm a poor blind person who will never amount to anything.
> The NFB's so-called philosophy has done nothing but divide and alienate
> those of us it is supposedly in place to help.
>
> In my opinion, you and those who feel as you do would be better off 
> spending
> your time getting your organization to see dog use as equal to the use of
> the long white cane.  Why should guide dog schools take you seriously if 
> you
> can't even get your own organization to treat you like the equals you 
> insist
> you are?
>
> And don't tell me to remember Daytona or to go to a national convention.
> I've been to national conventions and have served on local chapters, so 
> I've
> seen things first hand and I've spent time trying to change it.  As long 
> as
> people like you can justify discrimination within your own organization 
> and
> bully those of us who dare to think differently, nothing will change.
>
> Lisa
>
> The handle on my recliner apparently doesn't qualify as an exercise
> machine...who knew ?
> Lisa Belville
> missktlab1217 at frontier.com
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 1:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>
>
>> Hello Gary and everyone,
>>
>>    And there in lies the problem. I thought we attended guide dog 
>> training
>> programs to learn to be top-notch guide dog handlers whether with an
>> instructor or out alone with the dog. Students attending our centers are
>> expected to use their canes whenever they travel be it on their own, with
>> another student, or with a cane travel instructor. It should be the same
>> when one attends a guide dog program. Such low expectations and custodial
>> policies would never be tolerated at an NFB-run facility. If you continue
>> to
>> lap up the excuses put four the  by guide dog programs concerning
>> unaccompanied travel with a dog prior to graduation remember Daytona.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "GARY STEEVES" <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 11:07 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>
>>
>> Hi:
>>
>> Yes, at my school they allowed people to go out for short periods of time
>> in
>> the evening. All the girls in my class were under 18 so generally they
>> were
>> accompanied by a staff member but this got more lax as the program went
>> on.
>> No one was allowed to leave the school property with the dog until after
>> they graduated without being accompanied by a trainer mainly for 
>> liability
>> and safety reasons as others have stated.
>>
>> Like others had mentioned, I was there to get a  guide dog and do what 
>> was
>> required to begin the building of a strong team. So, although there was a
>> jam session I wanted to attend shortly after I got Bogart I did not do
>> this
>> since I knew it would not help us move forward. However after about ten
>> days
>> I felt, and the trainers agreed, that it would be okay to leave Bogart 
>> for
>> some periods of time. I don't think the school was ever trying to take
>> away
>> my freedom but they wanted to be sure, especially with poodles, that we
>> developed a strong bond before we left and we demonstrated our ability to
>> be
>> responsible in intregrating  the dogs into our lifes.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
>> Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 4:35 pm
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>
>>> Peter, I must respectfully say that what you are saying isn't
>>> the point. Yes, maybe the schools can let you go out some
>>> sooner, but the issue isn't really about the people so much as
>>> the dogs. The dogs are a little unnerved by the new experience
>>> they are having; the trust isn't there; should you really be
>>> able to go out with that dog right off because you are a
>>> competent adult? There are liability issues, too,  and
>>> everyone there isn't as prepared to go off campus. This creates
>>> sort of a class system in my opinion. And, as Janine pointed
>>> out, at some of the schools there are logistic issues for this.
>>>
>>> Cindy
>>>
>>> On Feb 1, 2011, at 5:17 PM, Peter Donahue wrote:
>>>
>>> > Hello again everyone,
>>> >
>>> >    What I'm hearing is, "Your expectations are
>>> too high. Lower them because
>>> > blind people are too stupid to handle new dogs in unfamiliar
>>> environments.
>>> > After all they're too helpless and can't be trusted to travel
>>> alone with new
>>> > dogs in strange situations. Such is beyond their capabilities.
>>> We need to
>>> > guide them every step of the way."
>>> >
>>> >    People we just staged a demonstration last
>>> Saturday of what is possible
>>> > when a belief in the abilities and capabilities of the blind
>>> is shared by
>>> > all. Driving that Ford Escape in a public venue such as the
>>> Daytona
>>> > International Speedway was a monumental achievement. Things
>>> could have gone
>>> > horribly wrong but they didn't. Mark Riccobono successfully
>>> navigated the
>>> > track and by doing so shattered many misconceptions concerning
>>> the blind. If
>>> > he had people holding him back as is happening among our guide
>>> dog users he
>>> > never would have had that chance to prove what can be
>>> accomplished when the
>>> > blind have access to information. It would have been a
>>> tremendous loss for
>>> > us all. How sad. He never drove that car on the Daytona Track
>>> until last
>>> > Saturday yet he performed a flawless demonstration in front of
>>> thousands of
>>> > people.
>>> >
>>> >    I find it disgusting that we can shine our
>>> lights for Mark's achievement
>>> > yet we have lowered expectations when it comes to guide dog
>>> training. If
>>> > Mark could drive that car in an unfamiliar environment those
>>> in guide dog
>>> > training that choose to do so should have the opportunities to
>>> work their
>>> > dogs during off-hours. As I stated previously the rule should
>>> be if a team
>>> > can't complete x amount of hours of unaccompanied travel
>>> during their
>>> > training the blind person shouldn't be sent home with a dog.
>>> >
>>> >    Finally I'm hearing some of this rubbish
>>> from people that on occasions
>>> > criticized the NFB for not doing enough to help guide dog
>>> users. How can we
>>> > do more if the organization's hands are tied by those
>>> unwilling to allow the
>>> > imagination juices to flow rather than buying in to the voodoo
>>> dished out by
>>> > our guide dog programs. I'd suggest that the next time someone
>>> suggests a
>>> > possible remedy to address and solve guide dog-related issues
>>> be they with
>>> > training, access issues, etc remember what happened in Daytona
>>> last
>>> > Saturday.
>>> >
>>> > Peter Donahue
>>> >
>>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> > From: "GARY STEEVES" <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>
>>> > To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>> Users"
>>> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 1:50 PM
>>> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Hi Tracy:
>>> >
>>> > I agree with you. During my class I started off slowly leaving
>>> Bogart alone
>>> > in the room and would see how he reacted. I sort of broke the
>>> rules first by
>>> > showing up at the end of day meeting without Bogart. My room
>>> was right
>>> > across from the meeting room so I could hear what he was
>>> doing. I live in an
>>> > apartment so it was crucial that I could have confidence in
>>> him that he
>>> > wouldn't bark if I left him home alone. I think my instructors
>>> trusted me
>>> > and how I worked with Bogart so I think they got what I was
>>> trying to do.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Once he was pretty good I did nip down to the bar for a beer
>>> or two but he
>>> > was never lefr alone for more than 4 hours.
>>> >
>>> > The othergirls in the class were all under 18 and they were
>>> interested in
>>> > checking out boys at the local coffee shop.  It was
>>> actually Bogart's
>>> > brother, Byran, who did all the barking which did worry me a
>>> bit with
>>> > regards to Bogart but so far he seems very good in this regard.
>>> >
>>> > I don't think the girls should have been sent home but I think
>>> that if the
>>> > dog wasn't doing good being left alone then they should have
>>> had to work at
>>> > it to build up the dogs trust that you'd come back.
>>> >
>>> > Gary
>>> >
>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>> > From: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>>> > Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 11:23 am
>>> > Subject: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>> > To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> >
>>> >> I don't think that going out with a brand-new dog, in an
>>> >> unfamiliar area,
>>> >> during class is a good idea, certainly not in the first couple
>>> >> weeks.  It
>>> >> takes a while for the dog and person to adjust to each other,
>>> >> and, until
>>> >> that happens, the guiding/following may not be all it should be.
>>> >> As to going out without the dog, I wonder what people think
>>> >> should happen
>>> >> in the following:
>>> >> I was rather shocked by an episode Gary related about his
>>> >> class.  People
>>> >> were free to go out after the training day, and it sounded like
>>> >> one woman
>>> >> was making a habit of taking off, leaving her dog in the room,
>>> >> where it
>>> >> started barking its head off, and other people repeatedly had to
>>> >> go and
>>> >> deal with the problem.
>>> >> If people are free to go out, and their dog causes a problem
>>> in their
>>> >> absence, I think it would be reasonable to give them a warning,
>>> >> and, if it
>>> >> happens again, send them home.  After all, they're in class
>>> >> to learn how
>>> >> to handle a dog, and if bar-hopping is more important...out
>>> they go!
>>> >>
>>> >> It did sound nice in Gary's class, to be able to nip down to the
>>> >> cornerand have a brewski.  But TSE is too far out in the
>>> >> country for that.  GDB
>>> >> too, for that matter.
>>> >> Tracy
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
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>>
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