[nagdu] Going out during training
Albert J Rizzi
albert at myblindspot.org
Thu Feb 3 01:11:41 UTC 2011
Hey buddy,
Thanks for your kind words. however, while I have disagreed with peter
nearly every time, and on every chat, my comment had nothing to do with him
in this instance. It was the guy they finally banned. So, stuck around I did
and continue to be stuck I will. Lol. Peace.
Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York 10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."
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-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Buddy Brannan
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 5:47 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
Hi Lisa and Albert,
In brief, please stick around. Pete doesn't speak for the rest of us, and I
daresay he's taken our philosophy and turned it into something it is very
definitely not.
--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
On Feb 2, 2011, at 4:46 PM, GARY STEEVES wrote:
> Hi Lisa:
>
> What a great message. I was going to write a long winded reply but realize
that I think I just need to say I agree with you. Certainly organizations
like the nfb have been helpful in moving blindness related issues forward
but they can also be divisive. I guess the key thing I have learned over the
years that is just because we are blind does not mean we agree. If I use a
dog or a cane, if I enjoy beeping crosswalks, if I sometimes ask for help
across a dangerous intersection and enjoy movies with dvs ... none of these
things make me a better person or better blind person, they just mean I have
learned to use the tools that work for me and I speak out when I feel it is
necessary. I try to know my rights and the laws so I can be a force for
change, like those who helped create those laws, and I generally try to be a
positive contributer to society in whatever way that is relevant to me.
>
> Hurray to being an individual and hurray for tolerence.
>
> Enjoy the day and my warm thoughts go out to all of you stuck in the grip
of winter. It is this time of year that always remind me why I love living
in Vancouver where there is little snow but sometimes too much rain. :)
>
> Gary
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lisa belville <missktlab1217 at frontier.com>
> Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011 1:11 pm
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>
>> Peter, I must be missing something, because I fail to see how
>> these policies
>> are custodial. Have you talked to sighted people who have
>> gone through the various versions of military boot camps?
>> They have rules in place, and God help you if you break one of
>> them. But you don't hear them whining about how the rules
>> are custodial or paternalistic. Most of them have joined
>> whatever branch of service by choice and want to progress
>> through their training. They either go with the program or
>> they leave. The purpose of this example is to illustrate
>> that policies need to be in place in order to achieve a specific
>> goal in a set time frame.
>>
>> People don't work with their green dogs off campus because they
>> know little about how that dog
>> reacts to certain situations. Why would any person who is
>> serious about working with that new dog want to jeopardize the
>> future of their team by possibly getting into a situation they
>> cannot handle due to this information. Consider also that
>> many people getting guide dogs have never had a dog before,
>> even as a pet. Why should that innocent dog be subject to
>> someone's inability to
>> properly work with it based on their inexperience with a
>> dog? Can you imagine how the public would react to
>> this? They already cry abuse when they see us give a leash
>> correction even if it's necessary.
>>
>> To revisit my military analogy, they don't just give people guns
>> and the keys to a tank and let them play war games during basic
>> training for the same types of reasons.
>>
>> Those of us in training for our successor dogs can also have
>> issues learning their dog's personality quirks. I didn't
>> know how to read the body language of either of my dogs for the
>> first week at least. Having someone there to give instant
>> feedback about what I was feeling through the harness and leash
>> was immensely helpful. so was the support and
>> socialization I got from others in the class with me.
>> Nights were spent learning how to groom, pill, and entertain my
>> dog. I personally didn't have the energy to go off campus
>> to do anything else. The thought that I needed to assert
>> myself as a blind person because I was being oppressed didn't
>> really occur to me because I knew that this period of training
>> would last for only a specific time period, and when it was
>> over, I would be on my own with the dog, so I'd better
>> concentrate on working and learning how we worked. I did
>> leave on the weekends, but was responsible enough to return in
>> time to feed and relieve my dog. Frankly, it was a much
>> needed break for me and the dog. I didn't feel oppressed,
>> but then, I'm not always looking for a reason to feel oppressed
>> or discriminated against. I suppose someone with this
>> mentality can find discrimination and opposition every place if
>> they do nothing else but look for it.
>>
>> Maybe it's not like this for you, but I'd bet that for 99.9% of
>> us training guide dogs and working with them as the end user is
>> incredibly time consuming for all involved. Every
>> component of the highly condensed training is useful for forming
>> a bond that will hopefully lead to the formation of a safe and
>> successful team.
>>
>> If we used your philosophy, people would just pick up a dog and
>> come and go at random, not showing up for training classes or
>> lectures. this is a recipe for failure. I'm not a
>> dog trainer. I could never do the owner trainer thing like
>> Julie and Tami have. That's why I go to a school. I
>> don't want to get into the nitty gritty details of training
>> because there are more facets to me than being a person who
>> happens to be blind and who happens to prefer the use of a big
>> black dog over the long, white cane.
>>
>> I might take your stance a bit more seriously if you managed to
>> convince the leaders at NFB centers to allow dogs in every
>> aspect of their training and
>> not only during certain areas or training classes.
>>
>> This is a policy I find offensive and paternalistic because it
>> implies that I, as a dog user, am obviously not adjusted to my
>> blindness, i.e., inferior and in need of training simply because
>> I use a dog. I don't measure up, I'm not the perfect model
>> blind person and I obviously need mommy and daddy NFB to show me
>> the error of my ways.
>>
>> This attitude is just as repulsive, more, in fact, than having
>> some sighted person tell me I'm a poor blind person who will
>> never amount to anything. The NFB's so-called philosophy has
>> done nothing but divide and alienate those of us it is
>> supposedly in place to help.
>>
>> In my opinion, you and those who feel as you do would be better
>> off spending your time getting your organization to see dog use
>> as equal to the use of the long white cane. Why should
>> guide dog schools take you seriously if you can't even get your
>> own organization to treat you like the equals you insist you are?
>>
>> And don't tell me to remember Daytona or to go to a national
>> convention. I've been to national conventions and have served on
>> local chapters, so I've seen things first hand and I've spent
>> time trying to change it. As long as people like you can
>> justify discrimination within your own organization and bully
>> those of us who dare to think differently, nothing will change.
>>
>> Lisa
>>
>> The handle on my recliner apparently doesn't qualify as an exercise
>> machine...who knew ?
>> Lisa Belville
>> missktlab1217 at frontier.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue"
>> <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National
>> Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 1:19 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>
>>
>>> Hello Gary and everyone,
>>>
>>> And there in lies the problem. I thought we
>> attended guide dog training
>>> programs to learn to be top-notch guide dog handlers whether
>> with an
>>> instructor or out alone with the dog. Students attending our
>> centers are
>>> expected to use their canes whenever they travel be it on their
>> own, with
>>> another student, or with a cane travel instructor. It should be
>> the same
>>> when one attends a guide dog program. Such low expectations and
>> custodial>policies would never be tolerated at an NFB-run
>> facility. If you continue
>>> to
>>> lap up the excuses put four the by guide dog programs
>> concerning>unaccompanied travel with a dog prior to graduation
>> remember Daytona.
>>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "GARY STEEVES"
>> <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>>To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 11:07 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi:
>>>
>>> Yes, at my school they allowed people to go out for short
>> periods of time
>>> in
>>> the evening. All the girls in my class were under 18 so
>> generally they
>>> were
>>> accompanied by a staff member but this got more lax as the
>> program went
>>> on.
>>> No one was allowed to leave the school property with the dog
>> until after
>>> they graduated without being accompanied by a trainer mainly
>> for liability
>>> and safety reasons as others have stated.
>>>
>>> Like others had mentioned, I was there to get a guide dog
>> and do what was
>>> required to begin the building of a strong team. So, although
>> there was a
>>> jam session I wanted to attend shortly after I got Bogart I did
>> not do
>>> this
>>> since I knew it would not help us move forward. However after
>> about ten
>>> days
>>> I felt, and the trainers agreed, that it would be okay to leave
>> Bogart for
>>> some periods of time. I don't think the school was ever trying
>> to take
>>> away
>>> my freedom but they wanted to be sure, especially with poodles,
>> that we
>>> developed a strong bond before we left and we demonstrated our
>> ability to
>>> be
>>> responsible in intregrating the dogs into our lifes.
>>>
>>> Gary
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
>>> Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 4:35 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>
>>>> Peter, I must respectfully say that what you are saying isn't
>>>> the point. Yes, maybe the schools can let you go out some
>>>> sooner, but the issue isn't really about the people so much as
>>>> the dogs. The dogs are a little unnerved by the new experience
>>>> they are having; the trust isn't there; should you really be
>>>> able to go out with that dog right off because you are a
>>>> competent adult? There are liability issues, too, and
>>>> everyone there isn't as prepared to go off campus. This creates
>>>> sort of a class system in my opinion. And, as Janine pointed
>>>> out, at some of the schools there are logistic issues for this.
>>>>
>>>> Cindy
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 1, 2011, at 5:17 PM, Peter Donahue wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello again everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>> What I'm hearing is, "Your expectations are
>>>> too high. Lower them because
>>>>> blind people are too stupid to handle new dogs in unfamiliar
>>>> environments.
>>>>> After all they're too helpless and can't be trusted to travel
>>>> alone with new
>>>>> dogs in strange situations. Such is beyond their capabilities.
>>>> We need to
>>>>> guide them every step of the way."
>>>>>
>>>>> People we just staged a demonstration last
>>>> Saturday of what is possible
>>>>> when a belief in the abilities and capabilities of the blind
>>>> is shared by
>>>>> all. Driving that Ford Escape in a public venue such as the
>>>> Daytona
>>>>> International Speedway was a monumental achievement. Things
>>>> could have gone
>>>>> horribly wrong but they didn't. Mark Riccobono successfully
>>>> navigated the
>>>>> track and by doing so shattered many misconceptions concerning
>>>> the blind. If
>>>>> he had people holding him back as is happening among our guide
>>>> dog users he
>>>>> never would have had that chance to prove what can be
>>>> accomplished when the
>>>>> blind have access to information. It would have been a
>>>> tremendous loss for
>>>>> us all. How sad. He never drove that car on the Daytona Track
>>>> until last
>>>>> Saturday yet he performed a flawless demonstration in front of
>>>> thousands of
>>>>> people.
>>>>>
>>>>> I find it disgusting that we can shine our
>>>> lights for Mark's achievement
>>>>> yet we have lowered expectations when it comes to guide dog
>>>> training. If
>>>>> Mark could drive that car in an unfamiliar environment those
>>>> in guide dog
>>>>> training that choose to do so should have the opportunities to
>>>> work their
>>>>> dogs during off-hours. As I stated previously the rule should
>>>> be if a team
>>>>> can't complete x amount of hours of unaccompanied travel
>>>> during their
>>>>> training the blind person shouldn't be sent home with a dog.
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally I'm hearing some of this rubbish
>>>> from people that on occasions
>>>>> criticized the NFB for not doing enough to help guide dog
>>>> users. How can we
>>>>> do more if the organization's hands are tied by those
>>>> unwilling to allow the
>>>>> imagination juices to flow rather than buying in to the voodoo
>>>> dished out by
>>>>> our guide dog programs. I'd suggest that the next time someone
>>>> suggests a
>>>>> possible remedy to address and solve guide dog-related issues
>>>> be they with
>>>>> training, access issues, etc remember what happened in Daytona
>>>> last
>>>>> Saturday.
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "GARY STEEVES"
>> <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the
>> National Association of Guide Dog
>>>> Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 1:50 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Tracy:
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with you. During my class I started off slowly leaving
>>>> Bogart alone
>>>>> in the room and would see how he reacted. I sort of broke the
>>>> rules first by
>>>>> showing up at the end of day meeting without Bogart. My room
>>>> was right
>>>>> across from the meeting room so I could hear what he was
>>>> doing. I live in an
>>>>> apartment so it was crucial that I could have confidence in
>>>> him that he
>>>>> wouldn't bark if I left him home alone. I think my instructors
>>>> trusted me
>>>>> and how I worked with Bogart so I think they got what I was
>>>> trying to do.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Once he was pretty good I did nip down to the bar for a beer
>>>> or two but he
>>>>> was never lefr alone for more than 4 hours.
>>>>>
>>>>> The othergirls in the class were all under 18 and they were
>>>> interested in
>>>>> checking out boys at the local coffee shop. It was
>>>> actually Bogart's
>>>>> brother, Byran, who did all the barking which did worry me a
>>>> bit with
>>>>> regards to Bogart but so far he seems very good in this regard.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think the girls should have been sent home but I think
>>>> that if the
>>>>> dog wasn't doing good being left alone then they should have
>>>> had to work at
>>>>> it to build up the dogs trust that you'd come back.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gary
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>>>>> Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 11:23 am
>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think that going out with a brand-new dog, in an
>>>>>> unfamiliar area,
>>>>>> during class is a good idea, certainly not in the first couple
>>>>>> weeks. It
>>>>>> takes a while for the dog and person to adjust to each other,
>>>>>> and, until
>>>>>> that happens, the guiding/following may not be all it
>> should be.
>>>>>> As to going out without the dog, I wonder what people think
>>>>>> should happen
>>>>>> in the following:
>>>>>> I was rather shocked by an episode Gary related about his
>>>>>> class. People
>>>>>> were free to go out after the training day, and it sounded like
>>>>>> one woman
>>>>>> was making a habit of taking off, leaving her dog in the room,
>>>>>> where it
>>>>>> started barking its head off, and other people repeatedly
>> had to
>>>>>> go and
>>>>>> deal with the problem.
>>>>>> If people are free to go out, and their dog causes a problem
>>>> in their
>>>>>> absence, I think it would be reasonable to give them a warning,
>>>>>> and, if it
>>>>>> happens again, send them home. After all, they're in class
>>>>>> to learn how
>>>>>> to handle a dog, and if bar-hopping is more important...out
>>>> they go!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It did sound nice in Gary's class, to be able to nip down
>> to the
>>>>>> cornerand have a brewski. But TSE is too far out in the
>>>>>> country for that. GDB
>>>>>> too, for that matter.
>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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