[nagdu] Going out during training
Cindy Ray
cindyray at gmail.com
Thu Feb 3 02:44:57 UTC 2011
Driving tests for licensure are also mostly written and there is a person often accompanying in the car.
On Feb 2, 2011, at 8:30 PM, Peter Donahue wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> Some states have a graduated licensure where in they are given
> unaccompanied driving privileges based on testing requirements and a history
> of no traffic violations so there are opportunities for the new driver to
> hone his/her driving skills prior to full licensure.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dixie" <blueherons at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 5:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>
>
> Lisa,
>
> Well said. One could also equate guide dog training to that of training for
> a driver's license. The trainee is allowed to practice under the watchful
> eyes of an instructor. The trainee doesn't drive independently until after
> a test is given and passed by that trainee. He or she is then allowed the
> privilege of driving independently.
>
>
>
>
> Dixie
> ~ @-> ~ <-@ ~
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Lisa belville
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 3:43 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>
> Peter, I must be missing something, because I fail to see how these policies
> are custodial. Have you talked to sighted people who have gone through the
> various versions of military boot camps? They have rules in place, and God
> help you if you break one of them. But you don't hear them whining about
> how the rules are custodial or paternalistic. Most of them have joined
> whatever branch of service by choice and want to progress through their
> training. They either go with the program or they leave. The purpose of
> this example is to illustrate that policies need to be in place in order to
> achieve a specific goal in a set time frame.
>
> People don't work with their green dogs off campus because they know little
> about how that dog
> reacts to certain situations. Why would any person who is serious about
> working with that new dog want to jeopardize the future of their team by
> possibly getting into a situation they cannot handle due to this
> information. Consider also that many people getting guide dogs have never
> had a dog before,
> even as a pet. Why should that innocent dog be subject to someone's
> inability to
> properly work with it based on their inexperience with a dog? Can you
> imagine how the public would react to this? They already cry abuse when
> they see us give a leash correction even if it's necessary.
>
> To revisit my military analogy, they don't just give people guns and the
> keys to a tank and let them play war games during basic training for the
> same types of reasons.
>
> Those of us in training for our successor dogs can also have issues learning
>
> their dog's personality quirks. I didn't know how to read the body language
>
> of either of my dogs for the first week at least. Having someone there to
> give instant feedback about what I was feeling through the harness and leash
>
> was immensely helpful. so was the support and socialization I got from
> others in the class with me. Nights were spent learning how to groom, pill,
>
> and entertain my dog. I personally didn't have the energy to go off campus
> to do anything else. The thought that I needed to assert myself as a blind
> person because I was being oppressed didn't really occur to me because I
> knew that this period of training would last for only a specific time
> period, and when it was over, I would be on my own with the dog, so I'd
> better concentrate on working and learning how we worked. I did leave on
> the weekends, but was responsible enough to return in time to feed and
> relieve my dog. Frankly, it was a much needed break for me and the dog. I
> didn't feel oppressed, but then, I'm not always looking for a reason to feel
>
> oppressed or discriminated against. I suppose someone with this mentality
> can find discrimination and opposition every place if they do nothing else
> but look for it.
>
> Maybe it's not like this for you, but I'd bet that for 99.9% of us training
> guide dogs and working with them as the end user is incredibly time
> consuming for all involved. Every component of the highly condensed
> training is useful for forming a bond that will hopefully lead to the
> formation of a safe and successful team.
>
> If we used your philosophy, people would just pick up a dog and come and go
> at random, not showing up for training classes or lectures. this is a
> recipe for failure. I'm not a dog trainer. I could never do the owner
> trainer thing like Julie and Tami have. That's why I go to a school. I
> don't want to get into the nitty gritty details of training because there
> are more facets to me than being a person who happens to be blind and who
> happens to prefer the use of a big black dog over the long, white cane.
>
> I might take your stance a bit more seriously if you managed to convince the
>
> leaders at NFB centers to allow dogs in every aspect of their training and
> not only during certain areas or training classes.
>
> This is a policy I find offensive and paternalistic because it implies that
> I, as a dog user, am obviously not adjusted to my blindness, i.e., inferior
> and in need of training simply because I use a dog. I don't measure up, I'm
>
> not the perfect model blind person and I obviously need mommy and daddy NFB
> to show me the error of my ways.
>
> This attitude is just as repulsive, more, in fact, than having some sighted
> person tell me I'm a poor blind person who will never amount to anything.
> The NFB's so-called philosophy has done nothing but divide and alienate
> those of us it is supposedly in place to help.
>
> In my opinion, you and those who feel as you do would be better off spending
>
> your time getting your organization to see dog use as equal to the use of
> the long white cane. Why should guide dog schools take you seriously if you
>
> can't even get your own organization to treat you like the equals you insist
>
> you are?
>
> And don't tell me to remember Daytona or to go to a national convention.
> I've been to national conventions and have served on local chapters, so I've
>
> seen things first hand and I've spent time trying to change it. As long as
> people like you can justify discrimination within your own organization and
> bully those of us who dare to think differently, nothing will change.
>
> Lisa
>
> The handle on my recliner apparently doesn't qualify as an exercise
> machine...who knew ?
> Lisa Belville
> missktlab1217 at frontier.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 1:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>
>
>> Hello Gary and everyone,
>>
>> And there in lies the problem. I thought we attended guide dog training
>> programs to learn to be top-notch guide dog handlers whether with an
>> instructor or out alone with the dog. Students attending our centers are
>> expected to use their canes whenever they travel be it on their own, with
>> another student, or with a cane travel instructor. It should be the same
>> when one attends a guide dog program. Such low expectations and custodial
>> policies would never be tolerated at an NFB-run facility. If you continue
>> to
>> lap up the excuses put four the by guide dog programs concerning
>> unaccompanied travel with a dog prior to graduation remember Daytona.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "GARY STEEVES" <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 11:07 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>
>>
>> Hi:
>>
>> Yes, at my school they allowed people to go out for short periods of time
>> in
>> the evening. All the girls in my class were under 18 so generally they
>> were
>> accompanied by a staff member but this got more lax as the program went
>> on.
>> No one was allowed to leave the school property with the dog until after
>> they graduated without being accompanied by a trainer mainly for liability
>> and safety reasons as others have stated.
>>
>> Like others had mentioned, I was there to get a guide dog and do what was
>> required to begin the building of a strong team. So, although there was a
>> jam session I wanted to attend shortly after I got Bogart I did not do
>> this
>> since I knew it would not help us move forward. However after about ten
>> days
>> I felt, and the trainers agreed, that it would be okay to leave Bogart for
>> some periods of time. I don't think the school was ever trying to take
>> away
>> my freedom but they wanted to be sure, especially with poodles, that we
>> developed a strong bond before we left and we demonstrated our ability to
>> be
>> responsible in intregrating the dogs into our lifes.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
>> Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 4:35 pm
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>
>>> Peter, I must respectfully say that what you are saying isn't
>>> the point. Yes, maybe the schools can let you go out some
>>> sooner, but the issue isn't really about the people so much as
>>> the dogs. The dogs are a little unnerved by the new experience
>>> they are having; the trust isn't there; should you really be
>>> able to go out with that dog right off because you are a
>>> competent adult? There are liability issues, too, and
>>> everyone there isn't as prepared to go off campus. This creates
>>> sort of a class system in my opinion. And, as Janine pointed
>>> out, at some of the schools there are logistic issues for this.
>>>
>>> Cindy
>>>
>>> On Feb 1, 2011, at 5:17 PM, Peter Donahue wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello again everyone,
>>>>
>>>> What I'm hearing is, "Your expectations are
>>> too high. Lower them because
>>>> blind people are too stupid to handle new dogs in unfamiliar
>>> environments.
>>>> After all they're too helpless and can't be trusted to travel
>>> alone with new
>>>> dogs in strange situations. Such is beyond their capabilities.
>>> We need to
>>>> guide them every step of the way."
>>>>
>>>> People we just staged a demonstration last
>>> Saturday of what is possible
>>>> when a belief in the abilities and capabilities of the blind
>>> is shared by
>>>> all. Driving that Ford Escape in a public venue such as the
>>> Daytona
>>>> International Speedway was a monumental achievement. Things
>>> could have gone
>>>> horribly wrong but they didn't. Mark Riccobono successfully
>>> navigated the
>>>> track and by doing so shattered many misconceptions concerning
>>> the blind. If
>>>> he had people holding him back as is happening among our guide
>>> dog users he
>>>> never would have had that chance to prove what can be
>>> accomplished when the
>>>> blind have access to information. It would have been a
>>> tremendous loss for
>>>> us all. How sad. He never drove that car on the Daytona Track
>>> until last
>>>> Saturday yet he performed a flawless demonstration in front of
>>> thousands of
>>>> people.
>>>>
>>>> I find it disgusting that we can shine our
>>> lights for Mark's achievement
>>>> yet we have lowered expectations when it comes to guide dog
>>> training. If
>>>> Mark could drive that car in an unfamiliar environment those
>>> in guide dog
>>>> training that choose to do so should have the opportunities to
>>> work their
>>>> dogs during off-hours. As I stated previously the rule should
>>> be if a team
>>>> can't complete x amount of hours of unaccompanied travel
>>> during their
>>>> training the blind person shouldn't be sent home with a dog.
>>>>
>>>> Finally I'm hearing some of this rubbish
>>> from people that on occasions
>>>> criticized the NFB for not doing enough to help guide dog
>>> users. How can we
>>>> do more if the organization's hands are tied by those
>>> unwilling to allow the
>>>> imagination juices to flow rather than buying in to the voodoo
>>> dished out by
>>>> our guide dog programs. I'd suggest that the next time someone
>>> suggests a
>>>> possible remedy to address and solve guide dog-related issues
>>> be they with
>>>> training, access issues, etc remember what happened in Daytona
>>> last
>>>> Saturday.
>>>>
>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "GARY STEEVES" <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>> Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 1:50 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Tracy:
>>>>
>>>> I agree with you. During my class I started off slowly leaving
>>> Bogart alone
>>>> in the room and would see how he reacted. I sort of broke the
>>> rules first by
>>>> showing up at the end of day meeting without Bogart. My room
>>> was right
>>>> across from the meeting room so I could hear what he was
>>> doing. I live in an
>>>> apartment so it was crucial that I could have confidence in
>>> him that he
>>>> wouldn't bark if I left him home alone. I think my instructors
>>> trusted me
>>>> and how I worked with Bogart so I think they got what I was
>>> trying to do.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Once he was pretty good I did nip down to the bar for a beer
>>> or two but he
>>>> was never lefr alone for more than 4 hours.
>>>>
>>>> The othergirls in the class were all under 18 and they were
>>> interested in
>>>> checking out boys at the local coffee shop. It was
>>> actually Bogart's
>>>> brother, Byran, who did all the barking which did worry me a
>>> bit with
>>>> regards to Bogart but so far he seems very good in this regard.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think the girls should have been sent home but I think
>>> that if the
>>>> dog wasn't doing good being left alone then they should have
>>> had to work at
>>>> it to build up the dogs trust that you'd come back.
>>>>
>>>> Gary
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>>>> Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 11:23 am
>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>
>>>>> I don't think that going out with a brand-new dog, in an
>>>>> unfamiliar area,
>>>>> during class is a good idea, certainly not in the first couple
>>>>> weeks. It
>>>>> takes a while for the dog and person to adjust to each other,
>>>>> and, until
>>>>> that happens, the guiding/following may not be all it should be.
>>>>> As to going out without the dog, I wonder what people think
>>>>> should happen
>>>>> in the following:
>>>>> I was rather shocked by an episode Gary related about his
>>>>> class. People
>>>>> were free to go out after the training day, and it sounded like
>>>>> one woman
>>>>> was making a habit of taking off, leaving her dog in the room,
>>>>> where it
>>>>> started barking its head off, and other people repeatedly had to
>>>>> go and
>>>>> deal with the problem.
>>>>> If people are free to go out, and their dog causes a problem
>>> in their
>>>>> absence, I think it would be reasonable to give them a warning,
>>>>> and, if it
>>>>> happens again, send them home. After all, they're in class
>>>>> to learn how
>>>>> to handle a dog, and if bar-hopping is more important...out
>>> they go!
>>>>>
>>>>> It did sound nice in Gary's class, to be able to nip down to the
>>>>> cornerand have a brewski. But TSE is too far out in the
>>>>> country for that. GDB
>>>>> too, for that matter.
>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
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