[nagdu] Informed choices? was FIDELCO ownership rights and other things.

d m gina dmgina at samobile.net
Thu Feb 3 21:11:34 UTC 2011


Gee Lisa,
I hope they put all of that into English.
Not just babble and then you wonder what you read.

Original message:
> I think what this issue has caused me to wonder is just how much about
> Fidelco's policies, or any guide dog school's policies, for that matter, are
> made public to potential attendees?

> Are there appeal procedures or conflict resolution processes in place to
> make any type of disagreement that could end in a dog being removed as fair
> as possible?

> The NFB is all about informed choice.  So, rather than arguing about whether
> or not all schools should grant ownership or wrangling over the need for
> legislation, wouldn't it be more efficient to lobby to make it mandatory
> that all schools make public their contracts, whether they grant ownership
> or not?  This way  people have the opportunity to look these over and make a
> decision before even applying.  This would allow those wanting outright
> ownership to automatically dismiss a school that didn't fit that
> requirement.  Those interested in conditional ownership could see right away
> what conditions and stipulations apply at various schools and make their
> decision accordingly.

> Now I am presuming that all schools would be willing to come clean about
> their student contracts and offer these prior to attending class, either
> right after the application process or on their web site so people can read
> it before attending class or applying to the school in the first place.  A
> school failing to provide this information, either voluntarily or upon
> request would send up red flags for me.  For example, GDUI did a survey of
> guide dog schools asking about training, ownership policies, etc.  There
> were a few schools who either didn't participate or who didn't answer these
> questions fully.  If a program is completely above board, why wouldn't they
> want to make this information available?

> In this instance, if a person goes to a school knowing beforehand what the
> ownership policy is, and under what conditions the dog can be removed, how
> much of a right to complain do they have if the dog is removed and it's
> proven that the person violated the terms of the contract.  That's how it
> works in the real world, so why not in this instance?  The person made an
> informed choice, did they not?

> To me this would be a much more organized and open way to go about the
> process of choosing a school with an agreeable ownership policy.

> I am not trying to blame the victim in the Fidelco cases.  I have no clue
> what's going on.  I know personally of people who should have never gotten
> dogs or who do not use them once home from training.  Under some schools'
> contracts, This is grounds for removal.  If the person knew all of this,
> even with Fidelco not publically providing the information, then I'm still
> not sure the school is completely in the wrong here.

> Lisa




> The handle on my recliner apparently doesn't qualify as an exercise
> machine...who knew ?
> Lisa Belville
> missktlab1217 at frontier.com

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brenda" <bjnite at windstream.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 2:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] FIDELCO ownership rights and other things.


>> Marion
>> Maybe issues like this should not be shared until they are resolved since
>> only a part of the information can be presented, just enough to make the
>> party of choice look bad.  Once the issue is resolved the whole picture
>> can be shared.

>> Again, what I was looking for was...
>> Could those individuals tell you or come on list themselves and say what
>> the situation is from their prospective?

>> I guess we will have to wait for the legal battle to end.
>> Brenda






>> On 2/3/2011 1:59 PM, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
>>> Brenda,
>>>    I am not sure what you would like to know. The specifics are that
>>> Fidelco removed the dogs without cause and without explanation. Mr.
>>> Russman would only say that it was due to "safety reasons" but refused to
>>> give any further details. I agree that there is a great deal of
>>> vagueness. This is due to Fidelco's evasiveness. The only explanation
>>> they will offer is to "read section d of the agreement" that states
>>> Fidelco has the right to repossess the dog at their sole and absolute
>>> discretion. Pressing me for an explanation is unproductive, as I have
>>> none! Only Fidelco can give an explanation and they refuse to do so.

>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion


>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brenda" <bjnite at windstream.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 1:26 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] FIDELCO ownership rights and other things.


>>>> Could those individuals tell you or come on list themselves and say what
>>>> the situation is from their prospective?  There is a lot of vagueness
>>>> still.
>>>> Brenda

>>>> On 2/3/2011 12:36 PM, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>> I will only say that we have attempted to get Fidelco's side of the
>>>>> story and, in spite of a signed release of information, Mr. Russman
>>>>> refused to talk to us about it. As this message so astutely stated, it
>>>>> makes us wonder what they are hiding. A great deal, we have come to
>>>>> find out, as more consumer come forward with similar stories. If it
>>>>> were an isolated incident, I would question the details. As a pattern
>>>>> evolves and we find credible information with physical evidence, it
>>>>> supports our action.

>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>> Marion Gwizdala


>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brenda" <bjnite at windstream.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 11:45 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] FIDELCO ownership rights and other things.


>>>>>> Brian
>>>>>> Well said.
>>>>>> I have asked what the person who had her dog removed from Fidelco was
>>>>>> actually told with no response - makes me wonder.  I do not think the
>>>>>> whole story has been relayed about the incidents at Leader either.  I
>>>>>> find it amazing that a dog could be removed with little warning and no
>>>>>> cause - something is missing OR at least it would be nice to hear from
>>>>>> the school and the handler  (both sides of the story) so an informed
>>>>>> opinion could be made about a certain school.

>>>>>> Maybe in the survey that is being prepared there could be an entry of
>>>>>> how many dogs have been repo'd by the school and the reason the school
>>>>>> gave for the forced return.

>>>>>> Another survey question would be what is the reason for your ownership
>>>>>> policy?  Why do you require a handler to wait two years before
>>>>>> awarding ownership?

>>>>>> Brenda
>>>>>> Brenda

>>>>>> On 2/3/2011 11:04 AM, Bryan Brown wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi all,

>>>>>>>    The day after Marion posted       the message about the woman who
>>>>>>> had their dog
>>>>>>> repossessed by FIDELCO for no reason... I received a call from a
>>>>>>> FIDELCO trainer. She was
>>>>>>> calling to find out if she could meet with me for a follow up visit.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> scheduled a time to meet with her on the seventeenth of February,
>>>>>>> since I am
>>>>>>> not in what you might say is FIDELCO's traditional service area this
>>>>>>> will be
>>>>>>> the first follow up visit that I have had.  They have offered, but I
>>>>>>> haven't had any
>>>>>>> problems that I thought needed a trainers help with so I declined.
>>>>>>> Any time
>>>>>>> I have ever had an issue or question I just call out to FIDELCO and I
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>> put right through to someone who can help. I've never had to request
>>>>>>> follow
>>>>>>> up, I guess I've been lucky and not had any issues as a working team
>>>>>>> that I couldn't deal with myself. I'd be comfortable if FIDELCO
>>>>>>> called and
>>>>>>> said hey we're five minutes from your house and we want to see your
>>>>>>> dog. That would be great, I don't have any reasons to be anything
>>>>>>> other than proud of my dog. They were however nice enough to give me
>>>>>>> more than two weeks notice and make sure that it worked with my
>>>>>>> schedule. I'm far from intimidated, in fact I'm
>>>>>>> excited, I know that I have nothing to worry about, my dog is
>>>>>>> healthy, he is in great shape , we are a great working team and I'll
>>>>>>> be proud to show
>>>>>>> off our teamwork to someone who knows how much it takes to develop
>>>>>>> that type
>>>>>>> of relationship with a dog. My only concern is that the trainer might
>>>>>>> not be
>>>>>>> able to stick around and have dinner with myself and my family.

>>>>>>> It's unfortunate that anyone would ever have their dog unjustly
>>>>>>> removed from
>>>>>>> them and I'm not sure how that would benefit the program, imagine the
>>>>>>> implications if a person could prove those allegations, for instance
>>>>>>> in front of a jury? Why aren't the people who have supposedly had
>>>>>>> their dogs removed
>>>>>>> making a public show of such an unjust action? I know if that
>>>>>>> happened to me
>>>>>>> I'd be the first to call the sheriff, my vet, my attorney  and the
>>>>>>> media, I'd make a
>>>>>>> huge stink of it, but I am confident that I have done nothing to
>>>>>>> bring such
>>>>>>> action on myself. , maybe the parties in question are not quite so
>>>>>>> confident? Is it possible that the inflammatory comments that Marion
>>>>>>> has made about FIDELCO and Mr. Russman are rooted in limited
>>>>>>> information and Mr. Russman's reservations to bow down to the big bad
>>>>>>> NFB?

>>>>>>> as far as I know... I own Tarik, do I think I have that right, "yes"
>>>>>>> at this
>>>>>>> point after five years it would be cruel to remove him from me, I am
>>>>>>> as much
>>>>>>> his life as he is mine. Do I think I deserved to own him upon
>>>>>>> graduation, my
>>>>>>> answer is no. I feel as though having a dog is a wonderful privilege
>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>> case of a FIDELCO dog it's a 45,000 dollar privilege   and I am the
>>>>>>> custodian of that privilege. It is my responsibility to hold up my
>>>>>>> end of
>>>>>>> the bargain. I knew what it was when I got the dog and I was
>>>>>>> confident in my
>>>>>>> ability to hold up my end of the bargain throughout his working life.
>>>>>>> That's
>>>>>>> why I signed my name on the line.

>>>>>>> I think making negative comments about any given program in a public
>>>>>>> forum
>>>>>>> without first hand experience is wrong and only serves to tarnish the
>>>>>>> program. If people have complaints so be it, but unless the
>>>>>>> complaints are coming directly from the people making them, the
>>>>>>> information has probably been spun and is most certainly one sided.

>>>>>>> I'm not sure why  anyone  sees fit to vilify any guide dog program.
>>>>>>> all the people that work so hard to provide us with these wonderful
>>>>>>> animals aren't doing it for the money. I'm fairly sure that the puppy
>>>>>>> raisers aren't pulling down huge salaries, and that  the trainers
>>>>>>> surely aren't earning six figures, I see that they are doing it
>>>>>>> because they are genuinely good people, and that they either have a
>>>>>>> passion for helping, or dogs, or both!

>>>>>>> Why is it that I see such a militant attitude with so much of the
>>>>>>> NFB? I know it's a strong advocacy group, but I personally don't want
>>>>>>> to be advocated for by a group that comes across so negatively. We've
>>>>>>> become a society of victims,  everything is always somebody else's
>>>>>>> fault and there is always someone out to get you, I see it in
>>>>>>> strangers and people I know and love. People have to start standing
>>>>>>> up for themselves again and taking responsibility for their own
>>>>>>> actions.

>>>>>>>    Bryan
>>>>>>> -----

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