[nagdu] Going out during training
Tamara Smith-Kinney
tamara.8024 at comcast.net
Thu Feb 3 22:39:28 UTC 2011
Rebecca,
Well, as someone who came by the skill much later in life, I have certainly
noticed that the longer I use my dog as my primary mobility tool, the
stupider I am when I try to go around the block with my cane. /lol/
Only at first, though. And it's not really the use of cane, literally, that
I have to work with myself on to get back into some reasonable way of going.
It's the change in the way I'm orienting and also in time distance and what
I'm paying attention to and all that. But even given my relatively small
experience, I get back into it pretty quick and go around like I know what
I'm doing.
If Mitzi were out of action for a significant length of time, I'm confident
I could grab cane and go, be, do, with only a short period to readjust to be
really slick with my cane as I was when I used it all the time.
Remembering how to find things like doors, elevators, restrooms, and a
startlingly number of other places and objects all by myself would require a
whole lot of extra thought and practice before I got good at it again, or so
it seems from walking around the shopping center while Mitzi is being
groomed. That dog has me way too spoiled there. /smile/ All those crazy
claims crazy poodle people make about the breed's verbal intelligence and
grasp of human vocabulary are apparently true, if not even understated. I
used to make a big deal out of showing her things I wanted to teach her to
find and repeated their names and giving her treats and clicking and all
that trainer stuff. And getting really aggravated with her, because she
would glance at the thing once, wag her tail, and then take to laughing at
me the more I went on trying my heart out to teach her what I wanted her to
learn ... She does have a definite way of laughing with her whole body and
her feet; I can hear the pattern in her steps even when I can't see the grin
and the wiggle.
Then I finally started noticing that if I asked myself where something was
that I had never taking the time to name for her and train her to find, she
would take me right there before I knew what was happening. I didn't
believe it, but after enough times of her finding enough things just because
I'd muttered to myself about it, I couldn't deny what was going on there.
The only thing she will not find for me now is the stinking pole with the
stinking button for the walk light on it. She will deign to take me
somewhere near it and if the light is right, I might notice her giving it a
passing point with her nose, but she will *not* show me. So guess what I
was trying to train her to find back then. On our usual street crossings
where I pretty much know where the stupid button is, I will still tap it and
give the find the pole command. She flips me off. And, yes, she very
definitely has a dance to that.
Still, once I remember to stop telling my cane to find the door, I do
discover that I can remember how to that without her curly cleverness.
Hm.. Now that I think about the bike analogy, it's actually a pretty good
one. True, you never forget how to ride one, but if you haven't done it for
awhile, you're pretty wobbly and awkward for the first little bit until the
fine points just snap back into place for you. That's me with cane these
days.
Honestly, I think the transition from one mode to the other will be much
easier for me once I achieve a stable degree of vision loss (say, total or
pretty close to it), because however much I think I'm not using in
orientation, it is clear that I am deluding myself. /smile/ It's been a
long time since the changes would screw me up (or that I would screw myself
up is probbly more like it) in a functionally significant way, but every now
and then I'll just sort of go around feeling vaguely confused about stuff
and finally realize why. It can affect how I'm working with my dog, too,
but she's used to it so it's less noticeable. Still, even as rarely as take
to the streets with my cane, it's not a huge big deal.
Which has changed the way I look at the policy on that point at the NFB
centers, versus before I had that experience. I would prefer some sort of
assessment to determine whether a student there needs that time learning to
completely rely on her/his cane instead of a blanket policy. But that's
just me.
Tami Smith-Kinney
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of PICKRELL, REBECCA M (TASC)
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 11:52 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
Is it me or is the idea that you can forget how to use a cane just silly.
I've used a cane since I was tiny. It's like brushing my teeth. If I forget
how to do either, I'm in real trouble and probably couldn't manage a dog. I
say this seriously, what is up with "forgetting to use a cane?" I don't
understand.
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of cheryl echevarria
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 6:17 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
On this I agree with Peter, the schools do not deny guide dogs, they want us
to work on all our skills, if it means that you use a cane part of the day
and the dog on another what is wrong with that.
There will be a time when we don't have our dogs then what, you don't
remember how to use your cane.
The biggest compliment you can pay me is to recommend my services!
Cheryl Echevarria
http://www.Echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/>
1-866-580-5574 or 631-456-5394
reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:reservations at echevarriatravel.com>
Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel CST-1018299-10
Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Absolute Cruise and Travel Inc.
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Donahue<mailto:pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
Users<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
Hello Lisa and everyone,
I'm talking about guide dog training not the military which on
occasion
engages in top-secret and covert operations. If NFB center students are
required to use their canes during class hours and in their free time to
hone their travel skills students in guide dog training should be expected
to do likewise. Remember Daytona.
Peter Donahue
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisa belville"
<missktlab1217 at frontier.com<mailto:missktlab1217 at frontier.com>>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
Peter, I must be missing something, because I fail to see how these
policies
are custodial. Have you talked to sighted people who have gone through
the
various versions of military boot camps? They have rules in place, and
God
help you if you break one of them. But you don't hear them whining about
how the rules are custodial or paternalistic. Most of them have joined
whatever branch of service by choice and want to progress through their
training. They either go with the program or they leave. The purpose of
this example is to illustrate that policies need to be in place in order
to
achieve a specific goal in a set time frame.
People don't work with their green dogs off campus because they know
little
about how that dog
reacts to certain situations. Why would any person who is serious about
working with that new dog want to jeopardize the future of their team by
possibly getting into a situation they cannot handle due to this
information. Consider also that many people getting guide dogs have never
had a dog before,
even as a pet. Why should that innocent dog be subject to someone's
inability to
properly work with it based on their inexperience with a dog? Can you
imagine how the public would react to this? They already cry abuse when
they see us give a leash correction even if it's necessary.
To revisit my military analogy, they don't just give people guns and the
keys to a tank and let them play war games during basic training for the
same types of reasons.
Those of us in training for our successor dogs can also have issues
learning
their dog's personality quirks. I didn't know how to read the body
language
of either of my dogs for the first week at least. Having someone there to
give instant feedback about what I was feeling through the harness and
leash
was immensely helpful. so was the support and socialization I got from
others in the class with me. Nights were spent learning how to groom,
pill,
and entertain my dog. I personally didn't have the energy to go off
campus
to do anything else. The thought that I needed to assert myself as a
blind
person because I was being oppressed didn't really occur to me because I
knew that this period of training would last for only a specific time
period, and when it was over, I would be on my own with the dog, so I'd
better concentrate on working and learning how we worked. I did leave on
the weekends, but was responsible enough to return in time to feed and
relieve my dog. Frankly, it was a much needed break for me and the dog.
I
didn't feel oppressed, but then, I'm not always looking for a reason to
feel
oppressed or discriminated against. I suppose someone with this mentality
can find discrimination and opposition every place if they do nothing else
but look for it.
Maybe it's not like this for you, but I'd bet that for 99.9% of us
training
guide dogs and working with them as the end user is incredibly time
consuming for all involved. Every component of the highly condensed
training is useful for forming a bond that will hopefully lead to the
formation of a safe and successful team.
If we used your philosophy, people would just pick up a dog and come and
go
at random, not showing up for training classes or lectures. this is a
recipe for failure. I'm not a dog trainer. I could never do the owner
trainer thing like Julie and Tami have. That's why I go to a school. I
don't want to get into the nitty gritty details of training because there
are more facets to me than being a person who happens to be blind and who
happens to prefer the use of a big black dog over the long, white cane.
I might take your stance a bit more seriously if you managed to convince
the
leaders at NFB centers to allow dogs in every aspect of their training and
not only during certain areas or training classes.
This is a policy I find offensive and paternalistic because it implies
that
I, as a dog user, am obviously not adjusted to my blindness, i.e.,
inferior
and in need of training simply because I use a dog. I don't measure up,
I'm
not the perfect model blind person and I obviously need mommy and daddy
NFB
to show me the error of my ways.
This attitude is just as repulsive, more, in fact, than having some
sighted
person tell me I'm a poor blind person who will never amount to anything.
The NFB's so-called philosophy has done nothing but divide and alienate
those of us it is supposedly in place to help.
In my opinion, you and those who feel as you do would be better off
spending
your time getting your organization to see dog use as equal to the use of
the long white cane. Why should guide dog schools take you seriously if
you
can't even get your own organization to treat you like the equals you
insist
you are?
And don't tell me to remember Daytona or to go to a national convention.
I've been to national conventions and have served on local chapters, so
I've
seen things first hand and I've spent time trying to change it. As long
as
people like you can justify discrimination within your own organization
and
bully those of us who dare to think differently, nothing will change.
Lisa
The handle on my recliner apparently doesn't qualify as an exercise
machine...who knew ?
Lisa Belville
missktlab1217 at frontier.com<mailto:missktlab1217 at frontier.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Donahue"
<pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com<mailto:pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
> Hello Gary and everyone,
>
> And there in lies the problem. I thought we attended guide dog
training
> programs to learn to be top-notch guide dog handlers whether with an
> instructor or out alone with the dog. Students attending our centers are
> expected to use their canes whenever they travel be it on their own,
with
> another student, or with a cane travel instructor. It should be the same
> when one attends a guide dog program. Such low expectations and
custodial
> policies would never be tolerated at an NFB-run facility. If you
continue
> to
> lap up the excuses put four the by guide dog programs concerning
> unaccompanied travel with a dog prior to graduation remember Daytona.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "GARY STEEVES"
<rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca<mailto:rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 11:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>
>
> Hi:
>
> Yes, at my school they allowed people to go out for short periods of
time
> in
> the evening. All the girls in my class were under 18 so generally they
> were
> accompanied by a staff member but this got more lax as the program went
> on.
> No one was allowed to leave the school property with the dog until after
> they graduated without being accompanied by a trainer mainly for
liability
> and safety reasons as others have stated.
>
> Like others had mentioned, I was there to get a guide dog and do what
was
> required to begin the building of a strong team. So, although there was
a
> jam session I wanted to attend shortly after I got Bogart I did not do
> this
> since I knew it would not help us move forward. However after about ten
> days
> I felt, and the trainers agreed, that it would be okay to leave Bogart
for
> some periods of time. I don't think the school was ever trying to take
> away
> my freedom but they wanted to be sure, especially with poodles, that we
> developed a strong bond before we left and we demonstrated our ability
to
> be
> responsible in intregrating the dogs into our lifes.
>
> Gary
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com<mailto:cindyray at gmail.com>>
> Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 4:35 pm
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
>
>> Peter, I must respectfully say that what you are saying isn't
>> the point. Yes, maybe the schools can let you go out some
>> sooner, but the issue isn't really about the people so much as
>> the dogs. The dogs are a little unnerved by the new experience
>> they are having; the trust isn't there; should you really be
>> able to go out with that dog right off because you are a
>> competent adult? There are liability issues, too, and
>> everyone there isn't as prepared to go off campus. This creates
>> sort of a class system in my opinion. And, as Janine pointed
>> out, at some of the schools there are logistic issues for this.
>>
>> Cindy
>>
>> On Feb 1, 2011, at 5:17 PM, Peter Donahue wrote:
>>
>> > Hello again everyone,
>> >
>> > What I'm hearing is, "Your expectations are
>> too high. Lower them because
>> > blind people are too stupid to handle new dogs in unfamiliar
>> environments.
>> > After all they're too helpless and can't be trusted to travel
>> alone with new
>> > dogs in strange situations. Such is beyond their capabilities.
>> We need to
>> > guide them every step of the way."
>> >
>> > People we just staged a demonstration last
>> Saturday of what is possible
>> > when a belief in the abilities and capabilities of the blind
>> is shared by
>> > all. Driving that Ford Escape in a public venue such as the
>> Daytona
>> > International Speedway was a monumental achievement. Things
>> could have gone
>> > horribly wrong but they didn't. Mark Riccobono successfully
>> navigated the
>> > track and by doing so shattered many misconceptions concerning
>> the blind. If
>> > he had people holding him back as is happening among our guide
>> dog users he
>> > never would have had that chance to prove what can be
>> accomplished when the
>> > blind have access to information. It would have been a
>> tremendous loss for
>> > us all. How sad. He never drove that car on the Daytona Track
>> until last
>> > Saturday yet he performed a flawless demonstration in front of
>> thousands of
>> > people.
>> >
>> > I find it disgusting that we can shine our
>> lights for Mark's achievement
>> > yet we have lowered expectations when it comes to guide dog
>> training. If
>> > Mark could drive that car in an unfamiliar environment those
>> in guide dog
>> > training that choose to do so should have the opportunities to
>> work their
>> > dogs during off-hours. As I stated previously the rule should
>> be if a team
>> > can't complete x amount of hours of unaccompanied travel
>> during their
>> > training the blind person shouldn't be sent home with a dog.
>> >
>> > Finally I'm hearing some of this rubbish
>> from people that on occasions
>> > criticized the NFB for not doing enough to help guide dog
>> users. How can we
>> > do more if the organization's hands are tied by those
>> unwilling to allow the
>> > imagination juices to flow rather than buying in to the voodoo
>> dished out by
>> > our guide dog programs. I'd suggest that the next time someone
>> suggests a
>> > possible remedy to address and solve guide dog-related issues
>> be they with
>> > training, access issues, etc remember what happened in Daytona
>> last
>> > Saturday.
>> >
>> > Peter Donahue
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "GARY STEEVES"
<rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca<mailto:rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>>
>> > To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>> Users"
>> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 1:50 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Tracy:
>> >
>> > I agree with you. During my class I started off slowly leaving
>> Bogart alone
>> > in the room and would see how he reacted. I sort of broke the
>> rules first by
>> > showing up at the end of day meeting without Bogart. My room
>> was right
>> > across from the meeting room so I could hear what he was
>> doing. I live in an
>> > apartment so it was crucial that I could have confidence in
>> him that he
>> > wouldn't bark if I left him home alone. I think my instructors
>> trusted me
>> > and how I worked with Bogart so I think they got what I was
>> trying to do.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Once he was pretty good I did nip down to the bar for a beer
>> or two but he
>> > was never lefr alone for more than 4 hours.
>> >
>> > The othergirls in the class were all under 18 and they were
>> interested in
>> > checking out boys at the local coffee shop. It was
>> actually Bogart's
>> > brother, Byran, who did all the barking which did worry me a
>> bit with
>> > regards to Bogart but so far he seems very good in this regard.
>> >
>> > I don't think the girls should have been sent home but I think
>> that if the
>> > dog wasn't doing good being left alone then they should have
>> had to work at
>> > it to build up the dogs trust that you'd come back.
>> >
>> > Gary
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: Tracy Carcione
<carcione at access.net<mailto:carcione at access.net>>
>> > Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 11:23 am
>> > Subject: [nagdu] Going out during training
>> > To: nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> >
>> >> I don't think that going out with a brand-new dog, in an
>> >> unfamiliar area,
>> >> during class is a good idea, certainly not in the first couple
>> >> weeks. It
>> >> takes a while for the dog and person to adjust to each other,
>> >> and, until
>> >> that happens, the guiding/following may not be all it should be.
>> >> As to going out without the dog, I wonder what people think
>> >> should happen
>> >> in the following:
>> >> I was rather shocked by an episode Gary related about his
>> >> class. People
>> >> were free to go out after the training day, and it sounded like
>> >> one woman
>> >> was making a habit of taking off, leaving her dog in the room,
>> >> where it
>> >> started barking its head off, and other people repeatedly had to
>> >> go and
>> >> deal with the problem.
>> >> If people are free to go out, and their dog causes a problem
>> in their
>> >> absence, I think it would be reasonable to give them a warning,
>> >> and, if it
>> >> happens again, send them home. After all, they're in class
>> >> to learn how
>> >> to handle a dog, and if bar-hopping is more important...out
>> they go!
>> >>
>> >> It did sound nice in Gary's class, to be able to nip down to the
>> >> cornerand have a brewski. But TSE is too far out in the
>> >> country for that. GDB
>> >> too, for that matter.
>> >> Tracy
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
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