[nagdu] Breeze was Going out during training

cheryl echevarria cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
Sun Feb 6 17:03:55 UTC 2011


Lisa is JJ still doing the training.

I was just sent an e-mail about the breeze and thinking about it.

Especially for my business.

The biggest compliment you can pay me is to recommend my services! 

Cheryl Echevarria 
http://www.Echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/> 
1-866-580-5574 or 631-456-5394
reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:reservations at echevarriatravel.com>

Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel CST-1018299-10
Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Absolute Cruise and Travel Inc.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Julie J<mailto:julielj at neb.rr.com> 
  To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org> 
  Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 12:02 PM
  Subject: Re: [nagdu] Breeze was Going out during training


  Lisa,

  Can you tell us more about using the Breeze? Especially how it might be 
  different with a guide dog?  I've been thinking about getting one, but the 
  price is a bit much if your not 110% sure it will be totally awesome! 
  *smile*

  Julie

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: "Lisa belville" <missktlab1217 at frontier.com<mailto:missktlab1217 at frontier.com>>
  To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
  <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
  Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 1:20 PM
  Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training


  >I have been out with volunteers and class mates for both of my training
  > classes at the GDF.  In one instance, we paid the cab fare ourselves, and 
  > in
  > another we went with a volunteer and his wife.
  >
  > You might find it interesting to know that when I was at the GDF for one 
  > of their Breeze training pilot classes last year we didn't need to stick 
  > to the same schedule as those there for guide dog training.  We were 
  > specifically told that we weren't there for guide dog training, so we 
  > didn't need to stick to the preset schedule for feeding and relieving our 
  > dogs.  So, while we had meals together, we could take our dogs out
  > whenever; they even gave us a electronic key card.  For all I know, people
  > were taking their dogs out at three in the morning just to revel in the 
  > feeling of being outside in Smithtown in the middle of the night.  <grin>
  >
  > The reason we had this privilege was because everyone getting breeze
  > training has to have been matched with their dog for at least six months.
  > We'd graduated the GDF's guide dog program, so the same guidelines for 
  > guide
  > dog students didn't apply to us.
  >
  >
  > In short, peter, what most of us are telling you is that we're free to 
  > leave and go
  > during training, just not with our dog,.  And, what seems to be quite 
  > common
  > here is that most people would prefer it that way for a variety of 
  > reasons, none of which has to do with blindness or someone's insecurity 
  > with it.
  >
  > Lisa
  >
  > The handle on my recliner apparently doesn't qualify as an exercise
  > machine...who knew ?
  > Lisa Belville
  > missktlab1217 at frontier.com<mailto:missktlab1217 at frontier.com>
  >
  > ----- Original Message ----- 
  > From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com<mailto:pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>>
  > To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
  > <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
  > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 8:33 PM
  > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
  >
  >
  >> Hello Doug and everyone,
  >>
  >> There are also taxis, vanpools and other means to over-come 
  >> transportation
  >> difficulties resulting from the remote locations of training campuses. 
  >> For
  >> that matter if a group of students wanted to go shopping at a local mall,
  >> or
  >> visit a near-by attraction the school could drop them off and pick them 
  >> up
  >> at an agreed upon time. This is only a problem if made to be one.
  >>
  >> Peter Donahue
  >>
  >>
  >> ----- Original Message ----- 
  >> From: "Doug Parisian" <eggmann at mts.net<mailto:eggmann at mts.net>>
  >> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
  >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
  >> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 7:06 PM
  >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
  >>
  >>
  >> Not quite the jackpot yet.  First, for those who are in doubt, believe me
  >> that, despite that really old TV show "My Mother The Car," vehicles are
  >> not
  >> living creatures.  But hey, maybe I'm wrong; after all, don't vegetables
  >> feel pain when they're pealed?
  >>
  >> One thing I know for sure is that, with the location of Seeing eye, it
  >> would
  >> be a long treturous walk to Morristown.  In places where some access to
  >> off-campus entertainment is possible, then I do believe that the decision
  >> should be a joint effort between school and the individual.  I probably
  >> could have gone out on the town safely and securely towards the middle of
  >> the second week with my second and third dogs.  Numbers 4th and 5th dogs,
  >> probably at the beginning of the third week.
  >>
  >> Unless things have changed, I find the wait from Saturday until Tuesday
  >> before we meet our dogs a gigantic waste of time during which period we
  >> weren't even allowed to use our canes (or whatever) in the various spaces
  >> available for walking.  Even when us good little boys and girls are
  >> bestowed
  >> the luxury of the leisure path, we're all expected to walk around in the
  >> same direction.
  >>
  >> Hey, I've already signed an agreement not holding the school responsible
  >> should (fat chance) anything of an injurious nature should happen to me
  >> during my 3 week holiday at the school
  >>
  >> Doug: Nobody's slave, and nobody's master..
  >> ----- Original Message ----- 
  >> From: "Steven Johnson" <blinddog3 at charter.net<mailto:blinddog3 at charter.net>>
  >> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
  >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
  >> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 6:24 PM
  >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
  >>
  >>
  >>> Jackpot!
  >>>
  >>>
  >>> -----Original Message-----
  >>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
  >>> Behalf
  >>> Of Lisa belville
  >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 2:43 PM
  >>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
  >>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
  >>>
  >>> Peter, I must be missing something, because I fail to see how these
  >>> policies
  >>> are custodial.  Have you talked to sighted people who have gone through
  >>> the
  >>> various versions of military boot camps?  They have rules in place, and
  >>> God
  >>> help you if you break one of them.  But you don't hear them whining 
  >>> about
  >>> how the rules are custodial or paternalistic.  Most of them have joined
  >>> whatever branch of service by choice and want to progress through their
  >>> training.  They either go with the program or they leave.  The purpose 
  >>> of
  >>> this example is to illustrate that policies need to be in place in order
  >>> to
  >>> achieve a specific goal in a set time frame.
  >>>
  >>> People don't work with their green dogs off campus because they know
  >>> little
  >>> about how that dog
  >>> reacts to certain situations.  Why would any person who is serious about
  >>> working with that new dog want to jeopardize the future of their team by
  >>> possibly getting into a situation they cannot handle due to this
  >>> information.  Consider also that many people getting guide dogs have
  >>> never
  >>> had a dog before,
  >>> even as a pet.  Why should that innocent dog be subject to someone's
  >>> inability to
  >>> properly work with it based on their inexperience with a dog?  Can you
  >>> imagine how the public would react to this?  They already cry abuse when
  >>> they see us give a leash correction even if it's necessary.
  >>>
  >>> To revisit my military analogy, they don't just give people guns and the
  >>> keys to a tank and let them play war games during basic training for the
  >>> same types of reasons.
  >>>
  >>> Those of us in training for our successor dogs can also have issues
  >>> learning
  >>>
  >>> their dog's personality quirks.  I didn't know how to read the body
  >>> language
  >>>
  >>> of either of my dogs for the first week at least.  Having someone there
  >>> to
  >>> give instant feedback about what I was feeling through the harness and
  >>> leash
  >>>
  >>> was immensely helpful.  so was the support and socialization I got from
  >>> others in the class with me.  Nights were spent learning how to groom,
  >>> pill,
  >>>
  >>> and entertain my dog.  I personally didn't have the energy to go off
  >>> campus
  >>> to do anything else.  The thought that I needed to assert myself as a
  >>> blind
  >>> person because I was being oppressed didn't really occur to me because I
  >>> knew that this period of training would last for only a specific time
  >>> period, and when it was over, I would be on my own with the dog, so I'd
  >>> better concentrate on working and learning how we worked.  I did leave 
  >>> on
  >>> the weekends, but was responsible enough to return in time to feed and
  >>> relieve my dog.  Frankly, it was a much needed break for me and the dog.
  >>> I
  >>> didn't feel oppressed, but then, I'm not always looking for a reason to
  >>> feel
  >>>
  >>> oppressed or discriminated against.  I suppose someone with this
  >>> mentality
  >>> can find discrimination and opposition every place if they do nothing
  >>> else
  >>> but look for it.
  >>>
  >>> Maybe it's not like this for you, but I'd bet that for 99.9% of us
  >>> training
  >>> guide dogs and working with them as the end user is incredibly time
  >>> consuming for all involved.  Every component of the highly condensed
  >>> training is useful for forming a bond that will hopefully lead to the
  >>> formation of a safe and successful team.
  >>>
  >>> If we used your philosophy, people would just pick up a dog and come and
  >>> go
  >>> at random, not showing up for training classes or lectures.  this is a
  >>> recipe for failure.  I'm not a dog trainer.  I could never do the owner
  >>> trainer thing like Julie and Tami have.  That's why I go to a school.  I
  >>> don't want to get into the nitty gritty details of training because 
  >>> there
  >>> are more facets to me than being a person who happens to be blind and 
  >>> who
  >>> happens to prefer the use of a big black dog over the long, white cane.
  >>>
  >>> I might take your stance a bit more seriously if you managed to convince
  >>> the
  >>>
  >>> leaders at NFB centers to allow dogs in every aspect of their training
  >>> and
  >>> not only during certain areas or training classes.
  >>>
  >>> This is a policy I find offensive and paternalistic because it implies
  >>> that
  >>> I, as a dog user, am obviously not adjusted to my blindness, i.e.,
  >>> inferior
  >>> and in need of training simply because I use a dog.  I don't measure up,
  >>> I'm
  >>>
  >>> not the perfect model blind person and I obviously need mommy and daddy
  >>> NFB
  >>> to show me the error of my ways.
  >>>
  >>> This attitude is just as repulsive, more, in fact, than having some
  >>> sighted
  >>> person tell me I'm a poor blind person who will never amount to 
  >>> anything.
  >>> The NFB's so-called philosophy has done nothing but divide and alienate
  >>> those of us it is supposedly in place to help.
  >>>
  >>> In my opinion, you and those who feel as you do would be better off
  >>> spending
  >>>
  >>> your time getting your organization to see dog use as equal to the use 
  >>> of
  >>> the long white cane.  Why should guide dog schools take you seriously if
  >>> you
  >>>
  >>> can't even get your own organization to treat you like the equals you
  >>> insist
  >>>
  >>> you are?
  >>>
  >>> And don't tell me to remember Daytona or to go to a national convention.
  >>> I've been to national conventions and have served on local chapters, so
  >>> I've
  >>>
  >>> seen things first hand and I've spent time trying to change it.  As long
  >>> as
  >>> people like you can justify discrimination within your own organization
  >>> and
  >>> bully those of us who dare to think differently, nothing will change.
  >>>
  >>> Lisa
  >>>
  >>> The handle on my recliner apparently doesn't qualify as an exercise
  >>> machine...who knew ?
  >>> Lisa Belville
  >>> missktlab1217 at frontier.com<mailto:missktlab1217 at frontier.com>
  >>>
  >>> ----- Original Message ----- 
  >>> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com<mailto:pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>>
  >>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
  >>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
  >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 1:19 PM
  >>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
  >>>
  >>>
  >>>> Hello Gary and everyone,
  >>>>
  >>>>    And there in lies the problem. I thought we attended guide dog
  >>>> training
  >>>> programs to learn to be top-notch guide dog handlers whether with an
  >>>> instructor or out alone with the dog. Students attending our centers 
  >>>> are
  >>>> expected to use their canes whenever they travel be it on their own,
  >>>> with
  >>>> another student, or with a cane travel instructor. It should be the 
  >>>> same
  >>>> when one attends a guide dog program. Such low expectations and
  >>>> custodial
  >>>> policies would never be tolerated at an NFB-run facility. If you
  >>>> continue
  >>>> to
  >>>> lap up the excuses put four the  by guide dog programs concerning
  >>>> unaccompanied travel with a dog prior to graduation remember Daytona.
  >>>>
  >>>> Peter Donahue
  >>>>
  >>>>
  >>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
  >>>> From: "GARY STEEVES" <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca<mailto:rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>>
  >>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
  >>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
  >>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 11:07 AM
  >>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
  >>>>
  >>>>
  >>>> Hi:
  >>>>
  >>>> Yes, at my school they allowed people to go out for short periods of
  >>>> time
  >>>> in
  >>>> the evening. All the girls in my class were under 18 so generally they
  >>>> were
  >>>> accompanied by a staff member but this got more lax as the program went
  >>>> on.
  >>>> No one was allowed to leave the school property with the dog until 
  >>>> after
  >>>> they graduated without being accompanied by a trainer mainly for
  >>>> liability
  >>>> and safety reasons as others have stated.
  >>>>
  >>>> Like others had mentioned, I was there to get a  guide dog and do what
  >>>> was
  >>>> required to begin the building of a strong team. So, although there was
  >>>> a
  >>>> jam session I wanted to attend shortly after I got Bogart I did not do
  >>>> this
  >>>> since I knew it would not help us move forward. However after about ten
  >>>> days
  >>>> I felt, and the trainers agreed, that it would be okay to leave Bogart
  >>>> for
  >>>> some periods of time. I don't think the school was ever trying to take
  >>>> away
  >>>> my freedom but they wanted to be sure, especially with poodles, that we
  >>>> developed a strong bond before we left and we demonstrated our ability
  >>>> to
  >>>> be
  >>>> responsible in intregrating  the dogs into our lifes.
  >>>>
  >>>> Gary
  >>>>
  >>>>
  >>>> ----- Original Message -----
  >>>> From: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com<mailto:cindyray at gmail.com>>
  >>>> Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 4:35 pm
  >>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
  >>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
  >>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
  >>>>
  >>>>> Peter, I must respectfully say that what you are saying isn't
  >>>>> the point. Yes, maybe the schools can let you go out some
  >>>>> sooner, but the issue isn't really about the people so much as
  >>>>> the dogs. The dogs are a little unnerved by the new experience
  >>>>> they are having; the trust isn't there; should you really be
  >>>>> able to go out with that dog right off because you are a
  >>>>> competent adult? There are liability issues, too,  and
  >>>>> everyone there isn't as prepared to go off campus. This creates
  >>>>> sort of a class system in my opinion. And, as Janine pointed
  >>>>> out, at some of the schools there are logistic issues for this.
  >>>>>
  >>>>> Cindy
  >>>>>
  >>>>> On Feb 1, 2011, at 5:17 PM, Peter Donahue wrote:
  >>>>>
  >>>>> > Hello again everyone,
  >>>>> >
  >>>>> >    What I'm hearing is, "Your expectations are
  >>>>> too high. Lower them because
  >>>>> > blind people are too stupid to handle new dogs in unfamiliar
  >>>>> environments.
  >>>>> > After all they're too helpless and can't be trusted to travel
  >>>>> alone with new
  >>>>> > dogs in strange situations. Such is beyond their capabilities.
  >>>>> We need to
  >>>>> > guide them every step of the way."
  >>>>> >
  >>>>> >    People we just staged a demonstration last
  >>>>> Saturday of what is possible
  >>>>> > when a belief in the abilities and capabilities of the blind
  >>>>> is shared by
  >>>>> > all. Driving that Ford Escape in a public venue such as the
  >>>>> Daytona
  >>>>> > International Speedway was a monumental achievement. Things
  >>>>> could have gone
  >>>>> > horribly wrong but they didn't. Mark Riccobono successfully
  >>>>> navigated the
  >>>>> > track and by doing so shattered many misconceptions concerning
  >>>>> the blind. If
  >>>>> > he had people holding him back as is happening among our guide
  >>>>> dog users he
  >>>>> > never would have had that chance to prove what can be
  >>>>> accomplished when the
  >>>>> > blind have access to information. It would have been a
  >>>>> tremendous loss for
  >>>>> > us all. How sad. He never drove that car on the Daytona Track
  >>>>> until last
  >>>>> > Saturday yet he performed a flawless demonstration in front of
  >>>>> thousands of
  >>>>> > people.
  >>>>> >
  >>>>> >    I find it disgusting that we can shine our
  >>>>> lights for Mark's achievement
  >>>>> > yet we have lowered expectations when it comes to guide dog
  >>>>> training. If
  >>>>> > Mark could drive that car in an unfamiliar environment those
  >>>>> in guide dog
  >>>>> > training that choose to do so should have the opportunities to
  >>>>> work their
  >>>>> > dogs during off-hours. As I stated previously the rule should
  >>>>> be if a team
  >>>>> > can't complete x amount of hours of unaccompanied travel
  >>>>> during their
  >>>>> > training the blind person shouldn't be sent home with a dog.
  >>>>> >
  >>>>> >    Finally I'm hearing some of this rubbish
  >>>>> from people that on occasions
  >>>>> > criticized the NFB for not doing enough to help guide dog
  >>>>> users. How can we
  >>>>> > do more if the organization's hands are tied by those
  >>>>> unwilling to allow the
  >>>>> > imagination juices to flow rather than buying in to the voodoo
  >>>>> dished out by
  >>>>> > our guide dog programs. I'd suggest that the next time someone
  >>>>> suggests a
  >>>>> > possible remedy to address and solve guide dog-related issues
  >>>>> be they with
  >>>>> > training, access issues, etc remember what happened in Daytona
  >>>>> last
  >>>>> > Saturday.
  >>>>> >
  >>>>> > Peter Donahue
  >>>>> >
  >>>>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
  >>>>> > From: "GARY STEEVES" <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca<mailto:rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>>
  >>>>> > To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
  >>>>> Users"
  >>>>> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
  >>>>> > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 1:50 PM
  >>>>> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
  >>>>> >
  >>>>> >
  >>>>> >
  >>>>> > Hi Tracy:
  >>>>> >
  >>>>> > I agree with you. During my class I started off slowly leaving
  >>>>> Bogart alone
  >>>>> > in the room and would see how he reacted. I sort of broke the
  >>>>> rules first by
  >>>>> > showing up at the end of day meeting without Bogart. My room
  >>>>> was right
  >>>>> > across from the meeting room so I could hear what he was
  >>>>> doing. I live in an
  >>>>> > apartment so it was crucial that I could have confidence in
  >>>>> him that he
  >>>>> > wouldn't bark if I left him home alone. I think my instructors
  >>>>> trusted me
  >>>>> > and how I worked with Bogart so I think they got what I was
  >>>>> trying to do.
  >>>>> >
  >>>>> >
  >>>>> >
  >>>>> > Once he was pretty good I did nip down to the bar for a beer
  >>>>> or two but he
  >>>>> > was never lefr alone for more than 4 hours.
  >>>>> >
  >>>>> > The othergirls in the class were all under 18 and they were
  >>>>> interested in
  >>>>> > checking out boys at the local coffee shop.  It was
  >>>>> actually Bogart's
  >>>>> > brother, Byran, who did all the barking which did worry me a
  >>>>> bit with
  >>>>> > regards to Bogart but so far he seems very good in this regard.
  >>>>> >
  >>>>> > I don't think the girls should have been sent home but I think
  >>>>> that if the
  >>>>> > dog wasn't doing good being left alone then they should have
  >>>>> had to work at
  >>>>> > it to build up the dogs trust that you'd come back.
  >>>>> >
  >>>>> > Gary
  >>>>> >
  >>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
  >>>>> > From: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net<mailto:carcione at access.net>>
  >>>>> > Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 11:23 am
  >>>>> > Subject: [nagdu] Going out during training
  >>>>> > To: nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
  >>>>> >
  >>>>> >> I don't think that going out with a brand-new dog, in an
  >>>>> >> unfamiliar area,
  >>>>> >> during class is a good idea, certainly not in the first couple
  >>>>> >> weeks.  It
  >>>>> >> takes a while for the dog and person to adjust to each other,
  >>>>> >> and, until
  >>>>> >> that happens, the guiding/following may not be all it should be.
  >>>>> >> As to going out without the dog, I wonder what people think
  >>>>> >> should happen
  >>>>> >> in the following:
  >>>>> >> I was rather shocked by an episode Gary related about his
  >>>>> >> class.  People
  >>>>> >> were free to go out after the training day, and it sounded like
  >>>>> >> one woman
  >>>>> >> was making a habit of taking off, leaving her dog in the room,
  >>>>> >> where it
  >>>>> >> started barking its head off, and other people repeatedly had to
  >>>>> >> go and
  >>>>> >> deal with the problem.
  >>>>> >> If people are free to go out, and their dog causes a problem
  >>>>> in their
  >>>>> >> absence, I think it would be reasonable to give them a warning,
  >>>>> >> and, if it
  >>>>> >> happens again, send them home.  After all, they're in class
  >>>>> >> to learn how
  >>>>> >> to handle a dog, and if bar-hopping is more important...out
  >>>>> they go!
  >>>>> >>
  >>>>> >> It did sound nice in Gary's class, to be able to nip down to the
  >>>>> >> cornerand have a brewski.  But TSE is too far out in the
  >>>>> >> country for that.  GDB
  >>>>> >> too, for that matter.
  >>>>> >> Tracy
  >>>>> >>
  >>>>> >>
  >>>>> >>
  >>>>> >>
  >>>>> >> _______________________________________________
  >>>>> >> nagdu mailing list
  >>>>> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
  >>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
  >>>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
  >>>>> >> info for nagdu:
  >>>>> >>
  >>>>>
  >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rainshadowmusic%40sha<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rainshadowmusic%40sha>
  >>> w.ca>>
  >>>>> >
  >>>>> > _______________________________________________
  >>>>> > nagdu mailing list
  >>>>> > nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
  >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
  >>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
  >>>>> info for nagdu:
  >>>>> >
  >>>>>
  >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.c<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.c>
  >>> om
  >>>>> >
  >>>>> >
  >>>>> > _______________________________________________
  >>>>> > nagdu mailing list
  >>>>> > nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
  >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
  >>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
  >>>>> info for nagdu:
  >>>>> >
  >>>>>
  >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.com<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.com>
  >>>>>
  >>>>> _______________________________________________
  >>>>> nagdu mailing list
  >>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
  >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
  >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
  >>>>> info for nagdu:
  >>>>>
  >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rainshadowmusic%40sha<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rainshadowmusic%40sha>
  >>> w.ca
  >>>>>
  >>>>
  >>>> _______________________________________________
  >>>> nagdu mailing list
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  >>> om
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