[nagdu] Breeze was Going out during training
Toni Whaley
blind_treasurer at verizon.net
Sun Feb 6 21:38:22 UTC 2011
Julie,
I have both the Breeze and the Sendero GpS systems. I have the latter
because a client here in Pennsylvania bought one. He wanted The Bureau of
Blindness and Visual Services to pay for his training. Since I worked with
him in the past onn a different training problem, he wanted mme to train him
with the Sendero GPS. So I bought one, learned how to use it, and trained
him
I find the GPS helpful in learning about new streets, stores, and
restaurants in my area. It is also useful to have it create a pedestrian or
vehicle route. I even used it to solve a problem with my dog Sport. He was
stopping back from the curb. I wanted to hup him up into the curb, but I
didn't want to do that too soon. So I decided to see if the Trekker (before
I bought Sendero) could help in this matter. Trekker announces the name of
the street you are approaching. Using this as a guide, I started hupping up
Sport a little after I heard the announcement. After doing this for a few
times, Sport started taking me into the curb. Another time I decided to walk
the two and a half miles from physical therapy to my house. When I reached
the mmain intersection, Sport ttook me around the corner. It was a gradual
turn so I wasn't really aware of it until Trekker announced that I was on
this street. (Sport couldn't take me to the curb because of the way it was
cut out to accomodate an island in the middle of the intersection.)
I think the Sendero has a larger list of pointss of interests. However, I
don't like the mmap they are using. While walking through my neighborhood in
virtual mode, I've found too many streets that Sendero tells me I can't turn
on them even though I know I can. I don't have this issue with the Trekker.
Also I'm reluctant to use the Sendero durring rainy weather, since it works
off the Apex. I don't want to get the display wet.
There is one caution regarding the use of a GPS system. Every once in awhile
it gets confused. So you still must pay attention to your environmen. Also,
it takes a little while to get used to paying attention to the dog, the
GPS, and the other audible signals.
Toni
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Julie J
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 12:03 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Breeze was Going out during training
Lisa,
Can you tell us more about using the Breeze? Especially how it might be
different with a guide dog? I've been thinking about getting one, but the
price is a bit much if your not 110% sure it will be totally awesome!
*smile*
Julie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisa belville" <missktlab1217 at frontier.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>I have been out with volunteers and class mates for both of my training
> classes at the GDF. In one instance, we paid the cab fare ourselves, and
> in
> another we went with a volunteer and his wife.
>
> You might find it interesting to know that when I was at the GDF for one
> of their Breeze training pilot classes last year we didn't need to stick
> to the same schedule as those there for guide dog training. We were
> specifically told that we weren't there for guide dog training, so we
> didn't need to stick to the preset schedule for feeding and relieving our
> dogs. So, while we had meals together, we could take our dogs out
> whenever; they even gave us a electronic key card. For all I know, people
> were taking their dogs out at three in the morning just to revel in the
> feeling of being outside in Smithtown in the middle of the night. <grin>
>
> The reason we had this privilege was because everyone getting breeze
> training has to have been matched with their dog for at least six months.
> We'd graduated the GDF's guide dog program, so the same guidelines for
> guide
> dog students didn't apply to us.
>
>
> In short, peter, what most of us are telling you is that we're free to
> leave and go
> during training, just not with our dog,. And, what seems to be quite
> common
> here is that most people would prefer it that way for a variety of
> reasons, none of which has to do with blindness or someone's insecurity
> with it.
>
> Lisa
>
> The handle on my recliner apparently doesn't qualify as an exercise
> machine...who knew ?
> Lisa Belville
> missktlab1217 at frontier.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 8:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>
>
>> Hello Doug and everyone,
>>
>> There are also taxis, vanpools and other means to over-come
>> transportation
>> difficulties resulting from the remote locations of training campuses.
>> For
>> that matter if a group of students wanted to go shopping at a local mall,
>> or
>> visit a near-by attraction the school could drop them off and pick them
>> up
>> at an agreed upon time. This is only a problem if made to be one.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Doug Parisian" <eggmann at mts.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 7:06 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>
>>
>> Not quite the jackpot yet. First, for those who are in doubt, believe me
>> that, despite that really old TV show "My Mother The Car," vehicles are
>> not
>> living creatures. But hey, maybe I'm wrong; after all, don't vegetables
>> feel pain when they're pealed?
>>
>> One thing I know for sure is that, with the location of Seeing eye, it
>> would
>> be a long treturous walk to Morristown. In places where some access to
>> off-campus entertainment is possible, then I do believe that the decision
>> should be a joint effort between school and the individual. I probably
>> could have gone out on the town safely and securely towards the middle of
>> the second week with my second and third dogs. Numbers 4th and 5th dogs,
>> probably at the beginning of the third week.
>>
>> Unless things have changed, I find the wait from Saturday until Tuesday
>> before we meet our dogs a gigantic waste of time during which period we
>> weren't even allowed to use our canes (or whatever) in the various spaces
>> available for walking. Even when us good little boys and girls are
>> bestowed
>> the luxury of the leisure path, we're all expected to walk around in the
>> same direction.
>>
>> Hey, I've already signed an agreement not holding the school responsible
>> should (fat chance) anything of an injurious nature should happen to me
>> during my 3 week holiday at the school
>>
>> Doug: Nobody's slave, and nobody's master..
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Steven Johnson" <blinddog3 at charter.net>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 6:24 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>
>>
>>> Jackpot!
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Lisa belville
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 2:43 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>
>>> Peter, I must be missing something, because I fail to see how these
>>> policies
>>> are custodial. Have you talked to sighted people who have gone through
>>> the
>>> various versions of military boot camps? They have rules in place, and
>>> God
>>> help you if you break one of them. But you don't hear them whining
>>> about
>>> how the rules are custodial or paternalistic. Most of them have joined
>>> whatever branch of service by choice and want to progress through their
>>> training. They either go with the program or they leave. The purpose
>>> of
>>> this example is to illustrate that policies need to be in place in order
>>> to
>>> achieve a specific goal in a set time frame.
>>>
>>> People don't work with their green dogs off campus because they know
>>> little
>>> about how that dog
>>> reacts to certain situations. Why would any person who is serious about
>>> working with that new dog want to jeopardize the future of their team by
>>> possibly getting into a situation they cannot handle due to this
>>> information. Consider also that many people getting guide dogs have
>>> never
>>> had a dog before,
>>> even as a pet. Why should that innocent dog be subject to someone's
>>> inability to
>>> properly work with it based on their inexperience with a dog? Can you
>>> imagine how the public would react to this? They already cry abuse when
>>> they see us give a leash correction even if it's necessary.
>>>
>>> To revisit my military analogy, they don't just give people guns and the
>>> keys to a tank and let them play war games during basic training for the
>>> same types of reasons.
>>>
>>> Those of us in training for our successor dogs can also have issues
>>> learning
>>>
>>> their dog's personality quirks. I didn't know how to read the body
>>> language
>>>
>>> of either of my dogs for the first week at least. Having someone there
>>> to
>>> give instant feedback about what I was feeling through the harness and
>>> leash
>>>
>>> was immensely helpful. so was the support and socialization I got from
>>> others in the class with me. Nights were spent learning how to groom,
>>> pill,
>>>
>>> and entertain my dog. I personally didn't have the energy to go off
>>> campus
>>> to do anything else. The thought that I needed to assert myself as a
>>> blind
>>> person because I was being oppressed didn't really occur to me because I
>>> knew that this period of training would last for only a specific time
>>> period, and when it was over, I would be on my own with the dog, so I'd
>>> better concentrate on working and learning how we worked. I did leave
>>> on
>>> the weekends, but was responsible enough to return in time to feed and
>>> relieve my dog. Frankly, it was a much needed break for me and the dog.
>>> I
>>> didn't feel oppressed, but then, I'm not always looking for a reason to
>>> feel
>>>
>>> oppressed or discriminated against. I suppose someone with this
>>> mentality
>>> can find discrimination and opposition every place if they do nothing
>>> else
>>> but look for it.
>>>
>>> Maybe it's not like this for you, but I'd bet that for 99.9% of us
>>> training
>>> guide dogs and working with them as the end user is incredibly time
>>> consuming for all involved. Every component of the highly condensed
>>> training is useful for forming a bond that will hopefully lead to the
>>> formation of a safe and successful team.
>>>
>>> If we used your philosophy, people would just pick up a dog and come and
>>> go
>>> at random, not showing up for training classes or lectures. this is a
>>> recipe for failure. I'm not a dog trainer. I could never do the owner
>>> trainer thing like Julie and Tami have. That's why I go to a school. I
>>> don't want to get into the nitty gritty details of training because
>>> there
>>> are more facets to me than being a person who happens to be blind and
>>> who
>>> happens to prefer the use of a big black dog over the long, white cane.
>>>
>>> I might take your stance a bit more seriously if you managed to convince
>>> the
>>>
>>> leaders at NFB centers to allow dogs in every aspect of their training
>>> and
>>> not only during certain areas or training classes.
>>>
>>> This is a policy I find offensive and paternalistic because it implies
>>> that
>>> I, as a dog user, am obviously not adjusted to my blindness, i.e.,
>>> inferior
>>> and in need of training simply because I use a dog. I don't measure up,
>>> I'm
>>>
>>> not the perfect model blind person and I obviously need mommy and daddy
>>> NFB
>>> to show me the error of my ways.
>>>
>>> This attitude is just as repulsive, more, in fact, than having some
>>> sighted
>>> person tell me I'm a poor blind person who will never amount to
>>> anything.
>>> The NFB's so-called philosophy has done nothing but divide and alienate
>>> those of us it is supposedly in place to help.
>>>
>>> In my opinion, you and those who feel as you do would be better off
>>> spending
>>>
>>> your time getting your organization to see dog use as equal to the use
>>> of
>>> the long white cane. Why should guide dog schools take you seriously if
>>> you
>>>
>>> can't even get your own organization to treat you like the equals you
>>> insist
>>>
>>> you are?
>>>
>>> And don't tell me to remember Daytona or to go to a national convention.
>>> I've been to national conventions and have served on local chapters, so
>>> I've
>>>
>>> seen things first hand and I've spent time trying to change it. As long
>>> as
>>> people like you can justify discrimination within your own organization
>>> and
>>> bully those of us who dare to think differently, nothing will change.
>>>
>>> Lisa
>>>
>>> The handle on my recliner apparently doesn't qualify as an exercise
>>> machine...who knew ?
>>> Lisa Belville
>>> missktlab1217 at frontier.com
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 1:19 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hello Gary and everyone,
>>>>
>>>> And there in lies the problem. I thought we attended guide dog
>>>> training
>>>> programs to learn to be top-notch guide dog handlers whether with an
>>>> instructor or out alone with the dog. Students attending our centers
>>>> are
>>>> expected to use their canes whenever they travel be it on their own,
>>>> with
>>>> another student, or with a cane travel instructor. It should be the
>>>> same
>>>> when one attends a guide dog program. Such low expectations and
>>>> custodial
>>>> policies would never be tolerated at an NFB-run facility. If you
>>>> continue
>>>> to
>>>> lap up the excuses put four the by guide dog programs concerning
>>>> unaccompanied travel with a dog prior to graduation remember Daytona.
>>>>
>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "GARY STEEVES" <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 11:07 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi:
>>>>
>>>> Yes, at my school they allowed people to go out for short periods of
>>>> time
>>>> in
>>>> the evening. All the girls in my class were under 18 so generally they
>>>> were
>>>> accompanied by a staff member but this got more lax as the program went
>>>> on.
>>>> No one was allowed to leave the school property with the dog until
>>>> after
>>>> they graduated without being accompanied by a trainer mainly for
>>>> liability
>>>> and safety reasons as others have stated.
>>>>
>>>> Like others had mentioned, I was there to get a guide dog and do what
>>>> was
>>>> required to begin the building of a strong team. So, although there was
>>>> a
>>>> jam session I wanted to attend shortly after I got Bogart I did not do
>>>> this
>>>> since I knew it would not help us move forward. However after about ten
>>>> days
>>>> I felt, and the trainers agreed, that it would be okay to leave Bogart
>>>> for
>>>> some periods of time. I don't think the school was ever trying to take
>>>> away
>>>> my freedom but they wanted to be sure, especially with poodles, that we
>>>> developed a strong bond before we left and we demonstrated our ability
>>>> to
>>>> be
>>>> responsible in intregrating the dogs into our lifes.
>>>>
>>>> Gary
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
>>>> Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 4:35 pm
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>
>>>>> Peter, I must respectfully say that what you are saying isn't
>>>>> the point. Yes, maybe the schools can let you go out some
>>>>> sooner, but the issue isn't really about the people so much as
>>>>> the dogs. The dogs are a little unnerved by the new experience
>>>>> they are having; the trust isn't there; should you really be
>>>>> able to go out with that dog right off because you are a
>>>>> competent adult? There are liability issues, too, and
>>>>> everyone there isn't as prepared to go off campus. This creates
>>>>> sort of a class system in my opinion. And, as Janine pointed
>>>>> out, at some of the schools there are logistic issues for this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 1, 2011, at 5:17 PM, Peter Donahue wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > Hello again everyone,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > What I'm hearing is, "Your expectations are
>>>>> too high. Lower them because
>>>>> > blind people are too stupid to handle new dogs in unfamiliar
>>>>> environments.
>>>>> > After all they're too helpless and can't be trusted to travel
>>>>> alone with new
>>>>> > dogs in strange situations. Such is beyond their capabilities.
>>>>> We need to
>>>>> > guide them every step of the way."
>>>>> >
>>>>> > People we just staged a demonstration last
>>>>> Saturday of what is possible
>>>>> > when a belief in the abilities and capabilities of the blind
>>>>> is shared by
>>>>> > all. Driving that Ford Escape in a public venue such as the
>>>>> Daytona
>>>>> > International Speedway was a monumental achievement. Things
>>>>> could have gone
>>>>> > horribly wrong but they didn't. Mark Riccobono successfully
>>>>> navigated the
>>>>> > track and by doing so shattered many misconceptions concerning
>>>>> the blind. If
>>>>> > he had people holding him back as is happening among our guide
>>>>> dog users he
>>>>> > never would have had that chance to prove what can be
>>>>> accomplished when the
>>>>> > blind have access to information. It would have been a
>>>>> tremendous loss for
>>>>> > us all. How sad. He never drove that car on the Daytona Track
>>>>> until last
>>>>> > Saturday yet he performed a flawless demonstration in front of
>>>>> thousands of
>>>>> > people.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I find it disgusting that we can shine our
>>>>> lights for Mark's achievement
>>>>> > yet we have lowered expectations when it comes to guide dog
>>>>> training. If
>>>>> > Mark could drive that car in an unfamiliar environment those
>>>>> in guide dog
>>>>> > training that choose to do so should have the opportunities to
>>>>> work their
>>>>> > dogs during off-hours. As I stated previously the rule should
>>>>> be if a team
>>>>> > can't complete x amount of hours of unaccompanied travel
>>>>> during their
>>>>> > training the blind person shouldn't be sent home with a dog.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Finally I'm hearing some of this rubbish
>>>>> from people that on occasions
>>>>> > criticized the NFB for not doing enough to help guide dog
>>>>> users. How can we
>>>>> > do more if the organization's hands are tied by those
>>>>> unwilling to allow the
>>>>> > imagination juices to flow rather than buying in to the voodoo
>>>>> dished out by
>>>>> > our guide dog programs. I'd suggest that the next time someone
>>>>> suggests a
>>>>> > possible remedy to address and solve guide dog-related issues
>>>>> be they with
>>>>> > training, access issues, etc remember what happened in Daytona
>>>>> last
>>>>> > Saturday.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Peter Donahue
>>>>> >
>>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> > From: "GARY STEEVES" <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>
>>>>> > To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users"
>>>>> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 1:50 PM
>>>>> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Hi Tracy:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I agree with you. During my class I started off slowly leaving
>>>>> Bogart alone
>>>>> > in the room and would see how he reacted. I sort of broke the
>>>>> rules first by
>>>>> > showing up at the end of day meeting without Bogart. My room
>>>>> was right
>>>>> > across from the meeting room so I could hear what he was
>>>>> doing. I live in an
>>>>> > apartment so it was crucial that I could have confidence in
>>>>> him that he
>>>>> > wouldn't bark if I left him home alone. I think my instructors
>>>>> trusted me
>>>>> > and how I worked with Bogart so I think they got what I was
>>>>> trying to do.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Once he was pretty good I did nip down to the bar for a beer
>>>>> or two but he
>>>>> > was never lefr alone for more than 4 hours.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The othergirls in the class were all under 18 and they were
>>>>> interested in
>>>>> > checking out boys at the local coffee shop. It was
>>>>> actually Bogart's
>>>>> > brother, Byran, who did all the barking which did worry me a
>>>>> bit with
>>>>> > regards to Bogart but so far he seems very good in this regard.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I don't think the girls should have been sent home but I think
>>>>> that if the
>>>>> > dog wasn't doing good being left alone then they should have
>>>>> had to work at
>>>>> > it to build up the dogs trust that you'd come back.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Gary
>>>>> >
>>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> > From: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>>>>> > Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 11:23 am
>>>>> > Subject: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>>> > To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> I don't think that going out with a brand-new dog, in an
>>>>> >> unfamiliar area,
>>>>> >> during class is a good idea, certainly not in the first couple
>>>>> >> weeks. It
>>>>> >> takes a while for the dog and person to adjust to each other,
>>>>> >> and, until
>>>>> >> that happens, the guiding/following may not be all it should be.
>>>>> >> As to going out without the dog, I wonder what people think
>>>>> >> should happen
>>>>> >> in the following:
>>>>> >> I was rather shocked by an episode Gary related about his
>>>>> >> class. People
>>>>> >> were free to go out after the training day, and it sounded like
>>>>> >> one woman
>>>>> >> was making a habit of taking off, leaving her dog in the room,
>>>>> >> where it
>>>>> >> started barking its head off, and other people repeatedly had to
>>>>> >> go and
>>>>> >> deal with the problem.
>>>>> >> If people are free to go out, and their dog causes a problem
>>>>> in their
>>>>> >> absence, I think it would be reasonable to give them a warning,
>>>>> >> and, if it
>>>>> >> happens again, send them home. After all, they're in class
>>>>> >> to learn how
>>>>> >> to handle a dog, and if bar-hopping is more important...out
>>>>> they go!
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> It did sound nice in Gary's class, to be able to nip down to the
>>>>> >> cornerand have a brewski. But TSE is too far out in the
>>>>> >> country for that. GDB
>>>>> >> too, for that matter.
>>>>> >> Tracy
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
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>>> w.ca>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>>>> >
>>>>> >
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