[nagdu] Breeze was Going out during training

Lisa belville missktlab1217 at frontier.com
Sun Feb 6 22:02:57 UTC 2011


Toni, you summed up the skill set needed to use a GPS and a dog safely and 
efficiently.  It is a balancing act at first, especially with someone like 
me who can barely walk and chew gum at the same time.  <grin>  Some people 
do have difficulty with the whole coordination of working with their dog, 
listening to ambient audible cues, and using the keypad of the Breeze.  But 
once this is mastered, it makes walking just for pleasure that much more 
fun.

Lisa


I'm wondering if the streets you're told you can't turn down are based on 
how the streets are for drivers.  We have numerous one way streets here, but 
of course, someone on the sidewalk can go the opposite direction with no 
problem.

The handle on my recliner apparently doesn't qualify as an exercise 
machine...who knew ?
Lisa Belville
missktlab1217 at frontier.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Toni Whaley" <blind_treasurer at verizon.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Breeze was Going out during training


> Julie,
>
> I have both the Breeze and the Sendero GpS systems. I have the latter
> because a client here in Pennsylvania bought one. He wanted The Bureau of
> Blindness and Visual Services to pay for his training. Since I worked with
> him in the past onn a different training problem, he wanted mme to train 
> him
> with the Sendero GPS. So I bought one, learned how to use it, and trained
> him
>
> I find the GPS helpful in learning about new streets, stores, and
> restaurants in my area. It is also useful to have it create a pedestrian 
> or
> vehicle route. I even used it to solve a problem with my dog Sport. He was
> stopping back from the curb. I wanted to hup him up into the curb, but I
> didn't want to do that too soon. So I decided to see if the Trekker 
> (before
> I bought Sendero) could help in this matter. Trekker announces the name of
> the street you are approaching. Using this as a guide, I started hupping 
> up
> Sport a little after I heard the announcement. After doing this for a few
> times, Sport started taking me into the curb. Another time I decided to 
> walk
> the two and a half miles from physical therapy to my house. When I reached
> the mmain intersection, Sport ttook me around the corner. It was a gradual
> turn so I wasn't really aware of it until Trekker announced that I was on
> this street. (Sport couldn't take me to the curb because of the way it was
> cut out to accomodate an island in the middle of the intersection.)
>
> I think the Sendero has a larger list of pointss of interests. However, I
> don't like the mmap they are using. While walking through my neighborhood 
> in
> virtual mode, I've found too many streets that Sendero tells me I can't 
> turn
> on them even though I know I can. I don't have this issue with the 
> Trekker.
> Also I'm reluctant to use the Sendero durring rainy weather, since it 
> works
> off the Apex. I don't want to get the display wet.
>
> There is one caution regarding the use of a GPS system. Every once in 
> awhile
> it gets confused. So you still must pay attention to your environmen. 
> Also,
> it takes a  little while to get used to paying attention to the dog, the
> GPS, and the other audible signals.
>
> Toni
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Julie J
> Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 12:03 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Breeze was Going out during training
>
> Lisa,
>
> Can you tell us more about using the Breeze? Especially how it might be
> different with a guide dog?  I've been thinking about getting one, but the
> price is a bit much if your not 110% sure it will be totally awesome!
> *smile*
>
> Julie
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Lisa belville" <missktlab1217 at frontier.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 1:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>
>
>>I have been out with volunteers and class mates for both of my training
>> classes at the GDF.  In one instance, we paid the cab fare ourselves, and
>> in
>> another we went with a volunteer and his wife.
>>
>> You might find it interesting to know that when I was at the GDF for one
>> of their Breeze training pilot classes last year we didn't need to stick
>> to the same schedule as those there for guide dog training.  We were
>> specifically told that we weren't there for guide dog training, so we
>> didn't need to stick to the preset schedule for feeding and relieving our
>> dogs.  So, while we had meals together, we could take our dogs out
>> whenever; they even gave us a electronic key card.  For all I know, 
>> people
>> were taking their dogs out at three in the morning just to revel in the
>> feeling of being outside in Smithtown in the middle of the night.  <grin>
>>
>> The reason we had this privilege was because everyone getting breeze
>> training has to have been matched with their dog for at least six months.
>> We'd graduated the GDF's guide dog program, so the same guidelines for
>> guide
>> dog students didn't apply to us.
>>
>>
>> In short, peter, what most of us are telling you is that we're free to
>> leave and go
>> during training, just not with our dog,.  And, what seems to be quite
>> common
>> here is that most people would prefer it that way for a variety of
>> reasons, none of which has to do with blindness or someone's insecurity
>> with it.
>>
>> Lisa
>>
>> The handle on my recliner apparently doesn't qualify as an exercise
>> machine...who knew ?
>> Lisa Belville
>> missktlab1217 at frontier.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 8:33 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>
>>
>>> Hello Doug and everyone,
>>>
>>> There are also taxis, vanpools and other means to over-come
>>> transportation
>>> difficulties resulting from the remote locations of training campuses.
>>> For
>>> that matter if a group of students wanted to go shopping at a local 
>>> mall,
>>> or
>>> visit a near-by attraction the school could drop them off and pick them
>>> up
>>> at an agreed upon time. This is only a problem if made to be one.
>>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Doug Parisian" <eggmann at mts.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 7:06 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>
>>>
>>> Not quite the jackpot yet.  First, for those who are in doubt, believe 
>>> me
>>> that, despite that really old TV show "My Mother The Car," vehicles are
>>> not
>>> living creatures.  But hey, maybe I'm wrong; after all, don't vegetables
>>> feel pain when they're pealed?
>>>
>>> One thing I know for sure is that, with the location of Seeing eye, it
>>> would
>>> be a long treturous walk to Morristown.  In places where some access to
>>> off-campus entertainment is possible, then I do believe that the 
>>> decision
>>> should be a joint effort between school and the individual.  I probably
>>> could have gone out on the town safely and securely towards the middle 
>>> of
>>> the second week with my second and third dogs.  Numbers 4th and 5th 
>>> dogs,
>>> probably at the beginning of the third week.
>>>
>>> Unless things have changed, I find the wait from Saturday until Tuesday
>>> before we meet our dogs a gigantic waste of time during which period we
>>> weren't even allowed to use our canes (or whatever) in the various 
>>> spaces
>>> available for walking.  Even when us good little boys and girls are
>>> bestowed
>>> the luxury of the leisure path, we're all expected to walk around in the
>>> same direction.
>>>
>>> Hey, I've already signed an agreement not holding the school responsible
>>> should (fat chance) anything of an injurious nature should happen to me
>>> during my 3 week holiday at the school
>>>
>>> Doug: Nobody's slave, and nobody's master..
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Steven Johnson" <blinddog3 at charter.net>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 6:24 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>
>>>
>>>> Jackpot!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Lisa belville
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 2:43 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>>
>>>> Peter, I must be missing something, because I fail to see how these
>>>> policies
>>>> are custodial.  Have you talked to sighted people who have gone through
>>>> the
>>>> various versions of military boot camps?  They have rules in place, and
>>>> God
>>>> help you if you break one of them.  But you don't hear them whining
>>>> about
>>>> how the rules are custodial or paternalistic.  Most of them have joined
>>>> whatever branch of service by choice and want to progress through their
>>>> training.  They either go with the program or they leave.  The purpose
>>>> of
>>>> this example is to illustrate that policies need to be in place in 
>>>> order
>>>> to
>>>> achieve a specific goal in a set time frame.
>>>>
>>>> People don't work with their green dogs off campus because they know
>>>> little
>>>> about how that dog
>>>> reacts to certain situations.  Why would any person who is serious 
>>>> about
>>>> working with that new dog want to jeopardize the future of their team 
>>>> by
>>>> possibly getting into a situation they cannot handle due to this
>>>> information.  Consider also that many people getting guide dogs have
>>>> never
>>>> had a dog before,
>>>> even as a pet.  Why should that innocent dog be subject to someone's
>>>> inability to
>>>> properly work with it based on their inexperience with a dog?  Can you
>>>> imagine how the public would react to this?  They already cry abuse 
>>>> when
>>>> they see us give a leash correction even if it's necessary.
>>>>
>>>> To revisit my military analogy, they don't just give people guns and 
>>>> the
>>>> keys to a tank and let them play war games during basic training for 
>>>> the
>>>> same types of reasons.
>>>>
>>>> Those of us in training for our successor dogs can also have issues
>>>> learning
>>>>
>>>> their dog's personality quirks.  I didn't know how to read the body
>>>> language
>>>>
>>>> of either of my dogs for the first week at least.  Having someone there
>>>> to
>>>> give instant feedback about what I was feeling through the harness and
>>>> leash
>>>>
>>>> was immensely helpful.  so was the support and socialization I got from
>>>> others in the class with me.  Nights were spent learning how to groom,
>>>> pill,
>>>>
>>>> and entertain my dog.  I personally didn't have the energy to go off
>>>> campus
>>>> to do anything else.  The thought that I needed to assert myself as a
>>>> blind
>>>> person because I was being oppressed didn't really occur to me because 
>>>> I
>>>> knew that this period of training would last for only a specific time
>>>> period, and when it was over, I would be on my own with the dog, so I'd
>>>> better concentrate on working and learning how we worked.  I did leave
>>>> on
>>>> the weekends, but was responsible enough to return in time to feed and
>>>> relieve my dog.  Frankly, it was a much needed break for me and the 
>>>> dog.
>>>> I
>>>> didn't feel oppressed, but then, I'm not always looking for a reason to
>>>> feel
>>>>
>>>> oppressed or discriminated against.  I suppose someone with this
>>>> mentality
>>>> can find discrimination and opposition every place if they do nothing
>>>> else
>>>> but look for it.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe it's not like this for you, but I'd bet that for 99.9% of us
>>>> training
>>>> guide dogs and working with them as the end user is incredibly time
>>>> consuming for all involved.  Every component of the highly condensed
>>>> training is useful for forming a bond that will hopefully lead to the
>>>> formation of a safe and successful team.
>>>>
>>>> If we used your philosophy, people would just pick up a dog and come 
>>>> and
>>>> go
>>>> at random, not showing up for training classes or lectures.  this is a
>>>> recipe for failure.  I'm not a dog trainer.  I could never do the owner
>>>> trainer thing like Julie and Tami have.  That's why I go to a school. 
>>>> I
>>>> don't want to get into the nitty gritty details of training because
>>>> there
>>>> are more facets to me than being a person who happens to be blind and
>>>> who
>>>> happens to prefer the use of a big black dog over the long, white cane.
>>>>
>>>> I might take your stance a bit more seriously if you managed to 
>>>> convince
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>> leaders at NFB centers to allow dogs in every aspect of their training
>>>> and
>>>> not only during certain areas or training classes.
>>>>
>>>> This is a policy I find offensive and paternalistic because it implies
>>>> that
>>>> I, as a dog user, am obviously not adjusted to my blindness, i.e.,
>>>> inferior
>>>> and in need of training simply because I use a dog.  I don't measure 
>>>> up,
>>>> I'm
>>>>
>>>> not the perfect model blind person and I obviously need mommy and daddy
>>>> NFB
>>>> to show me the error of my ways.
>>>>
>>>> This attitude is just as repulsive, more, in fact, than having some
>>>> sighted
>>>> person tell me I'm a poor blind person who will never amount to
>>>> anything.
>>>> The NFB's so-called philosophy has done nothing but divide and alienate
>>>> those of us it is supposedly in place to help.
>>>>
>>>> In my opinion, you and those who feel as you do would be better off
>>>> spending
>>>>
>>>> your time getting your organization to see dog use as equal to the use
>>>> of
>>>> the long white cane.  Why should guide dog schools take you seriously 
>>>> if
>>>> you
>>>>
>>>> can't even get your own organization to treat you like the equals you
>>>> insist
>>>>
>>>> you are?
>>>>
>>>> And don't tell me to remember Daytona or to go to a national 
>>>> convention.
>>>> I've been to national conventions and have served on local chapters, so
>>>> I've
>>>>
>>>> seen things first hand and I've spent time trying to change it.  As 
>>>> long
>>>> as
>>>> people like you can justify discrimination within your own organization
>>>> and
>>>> bully those of us who dare to think differently, nothing will change.
>>>>
>>>> Lisa
>>>>
>>>> The handle on my recliner apparently doesn't qualify as an exercise
>>>> machine...who knew ?
>>>> Lisa Belville
>>>> missktlab1217 at frontier.com
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 1:19 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hello Gary and everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>>    And there in lies the problem. I thought we attended guide dog
>>>>> training
>>>>> programs to learn to be top-notch guide dog handlers whether with an
>>>>> instructor or out alone with the dog. Students attending our centers
>>>>> are
>>>>> expected to use their canes whenever they travel be it on their own,
>>>>> with
>>>>> another student, or with a cane travel instructor. It should be the
>>>>> same
>>>>> when one attends a guide dog program. Such low expectations and
>>>>> custodial
>>>>> policies would never be tolerated at an NFB-run facility. If you
>>>>> continue
>>>>> to
>>>>> lap up the excuses put four the  by guide dog programs concerning
>>>>> unaccompanied travel with a dog prior to graduation remember Daytona.
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: "GARY STEEVES" <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 11:07 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi:
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, at my school they allowed people to go out for short periods of
>>>>> time
>>>>> in
>>>>> the evening. All the girls in my class were under 18 so generally they
>>>>> were
>>>>> accompanied by a staff member but this got more lax as the program 
>>>>> went
>>>>> on.
>>>>> No one was allowed to leave the school property with the dog until
>>>>> after
>>>>> they graduated without being accompanied by a trainer mainly for
>>>>> liability
>>>>> and safety reasons as others have stated.
>>>>>
>>>>> Like others had mentioned, I was there to get a  guide dog and do what
>>>>> was
>>>>> required to begin the building of a strong team. So, although there 
>>>>> was
>>>>> a
>>>>> jam session I wanted to attend shortly after I got Bogart I did not do
>>>>> this
>>>>> since I knew it would not help us move forward. However after about 
>>>>> ten
>>>>> days
>>>>> I felt, and the trainers agreed, that it would be okay to leave Bogart
>>>>> for
>>>>> some periods of time. I don't think the school was ever trying to take
>>>>> away
>>>>> my freedom but they wanted to be sure, especially with poodles, that 
>>>>> we
>>>>> developed a strong bond before we left and we demonstrated our ability
>>>>> to
>>>>> be
>>>>> responsible in intregrating  the dogs into our lifes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gary
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
>>>>> Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 4:35 pm
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter, I must respectfully say that what you are saying isn't
>>>>>> the point. Yes, maybe the schools can let you go out some
>>>>>> sooner, but the issue isn't really about the people so much as
>>>>>> the dogs. The dogs are a little unnerved by the new experience
>>>>>> they are having; the trust isn't there; should you really be
>>>>>> able to go out with that dog right off because you are a
>>>>>> competent adult? There are liability issues, too,  and
>>>>>> everyone there isn't as prepared to go off campus. This creates
>>>>>> sort of a class system in my opinion. And, as Janine pointed
>>>>>> out, at some of the schools there are logistic issues for this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 1, 2011, at 5:17 PM, Peter Donahue wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Hello again everyone,
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >    What I'm hearing is, "Your expectations are
>>>>>> too high. Lower them because
>>>>>> > blind people are too stupid to handle new dogs in unfamiliar
>>>>>> environments.
>>>>>> > After all they're too helpless and can't be trusted to travel
>>>>>> alone with new
>>>>>> > dogs in strange situations. Such is beyond their capabilities.
>>>>>> We need to
>>>>>> > guide them every step of the way."
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >    People we just staged a demonstration last
>>>>>> Saturday of what is possible
>>>>>> > when a belief in the abilities and capabilities of the blind
>>>>>> is shared by
>>>>>> > all. Driving that Ford Escape in a public venue such as the
>>>>>> Daytona
>>>>>> > International Speedway was a monumental achievement. Things
>>>>>> could have gone
>>>>>> > horribly wrong but they didn't. Mark Riccobono successfully
>>>>>> navigated the
>>>>>> > track and by doing so shattered many misconceptions concerning
>>>>>> the blind. If
>>>>>> > he had people holding him back as is happening among our guide
>>>>>> dog users he
>>>>>> > never would have had that chance to prove what can be
>>>>>> accomplished when the
>>>>>> > blind have access to information. It would have been a
>>>>>> tremendous loss for
>>>>>> > us all. How sad. He never drove that car on the Daytona Track
>>>>>> until last
>>>>>> > Saturday yet he performed a flawless demonstration in front of
>>>>>> thousands of
>>>>>> > people.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >    I find it disgusting that we can shine our
>>>>>> lights for Mark's achievement
>>>>>> > yet we have lowered expectations when it comes to guide dog
>>>>>> training. If
>>>>>> > Mark could drive that car in an unfamiliar environment those
>>>>>> in guide dog
>>>>>> > training that choose to do so should have the opportunities to
>>>>>> work their
>>>>>> > dogs during off-hours. As I stated previously the rule should
>>>>>> be if a team
>>>>>> > can't complete x amount of hours of unaccompanied travel
>>>>>> during their
>>>>>> > training the blind person shouldn't be sent home with a dog.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >    Finally I'm hearing some of this rubbish
>>>>>> from people that on occasions
>>>>>> > criticized the NFB for not doing enough to help guide dog
>>>>>> users. How can we
>>>>>> > do more if the organization's hands are tied by those
>>>>>> unwilling to allow the
>>>>>> > imagination juices to flow rather than buying in to the voodoo
>>>>>> dished out by
>>>>>> > our guide dog programs. I'd suggest that the next time someone
>>>>>> suggests a
>>>>>> > possible remedy to address and solve guide dog-related issues
>>>>>> be they with
>>>>>> > training, access issues, etc remember what happened in Daytona
>>>>>> last
>>>>>> > Saturday.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Peter Donahue
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>> > From: "GARY STEEVES" <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>
>>>>>> > To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 1:50 PM
>>>>>> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Hi Tracy:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I agree with you. During my class I started off slowly leaving
>>>>>> Bogart alone
>>>>>> > in the room and would see how he reacted. I sort of broke the
>>>>>> rules first by
>>>>>> > showing up at the end of day meeting without Bogart. My room
>>>>>> was right
>>>>>> > across from the meeting room so I could hear what he was
>>>>>> doing. I live in an
>>>>>> > apartment so it was crucial that I could have confidence in
>>>>>> him that he
>>>>>> > wouldn't bark if I left him home alone. I think my instructors
>>>>>> trusted me
>>>>>> > and how I worked with Bogart so I think they got what I was
>>>>>> trying to do.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Once he was pretty good I did nip down to the bar for a beer
>>>>>> or two but he
>>>>>> > was never lefr alone for more than 4 hours.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The othergirls in the class were all under 18 and they were
>>>>>> interested in
>>>>>> > checking out boys at the local coffee shop.  It was
>>>>>> actually Bogart's
>>>>>> > brother, Byran, who did all the barking which did worry me a
>>>>>> bit with
>>>>>> > regards to Bogart but so far he seems very good in this regard.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I don't think the girls should have been sent home but I think
>>>>>> that if the
>>>>>> > dog wasn't doing good being left alone then they should have
>>>>>> had to work at
>>>>>> > it to build up the dogs trust that you'd come back.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Gary
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> > From: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>>>>>> > Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 11:23 am
>>>>>> > Subject: [nagdu] Going out during training
>>>>>> > To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> I don't think that going out with a brand-new dog, in an
>>>>>> >> unfamiliar area,
>>>>>> >> during class is a good idea, certainly not in the first couple
>>>>>> >> weeks.  It
>>>>>> >> takes a while for the dog and person to adjust to each other,
>>>>>> >> and, until
>>>>>> >> that happens, the guiding/following may not be all it should be.
>>>>>> >> As to going out without the dog, I wonder what people think
>>>>>> >> should happen
>>>>>> >> in the following:
>>>>>> >> I was rather shocked by an episode Gary related about his
>>>>>> >> class.  People
>>>>>> >> were free to go out after the training day, and it sounded like
>>>>>> >> one woman
>>>>>> >> was making a habit of taking off, leaving her dog in the room,
>>>>>> >> where it
>>>>>> >> started barking its head off, and other people repeatedly had to
>>>>>> >> go and
>>>>>> >> deal with the problem.
>>>>>> >> If people are free to go out, and their dog causes a problem
>>>>>> in their
>>>>>> >> absence, I think it would be reasonable to give them a warning,
>>>>>> >> and, if it
>>>>>> >> happens again, send them home.  After all, they're in class
>>>>>> >> to learn how
>>>>>> >> to handle a dog, and if bar-hopping is more important...out
>>>>>> they go!
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> It did sound nice in Gary's class, to be able to nip down to the
>>>>>> >> cornerand have a brewski.  But TSE is too far out in the
>>>>>> >> country for that.  GDB
>>>>>> >> too, for that matter.
>>>>>> >> Tracy
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>> >> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>
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>>>> w.ca>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > nagdu mailing list
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>>>> om
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > nagdu mailing list
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>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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