[nagdu] Cruel training methods

PICKRELL, REBECCA M (TASC) REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com
Wed Jan 12 16:12:27 UTC 2011


                I can understand finding the dog beautiful froma physical perspective but sweet sounds like the writer had already made up her mind before the encounter happened. You don't know that something or someone is sweet until you know it. This writer didn't. For all she knows, the dog could be Kujo.
Some people are just primed for a certain type of interaction I guess.
I do wonder what all really went down.

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 9:54 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Cruel training methods

This is really too bad.  I don't think the trainer should have been so brusk
in her demeanor, meaning that shouting"no" in the store was probably not
making a good impression, but then again I've said "no" louder than was
probably necessary before.   I wonder if the account of the original poster
is actually what people see when they observe someone training a service dog
in public?  Are people that prone to over reacting?

Julie

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ginger Kutsch" <gingerKutsch at yahoo.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 8:16 AM
Subject: [nagdu] Cruel training methods


> Cruel Training Methods
> updated: Jan 09, 2011, 1:26 PM
> Santa Barbara Edhat, California
> <http://www.edhat.com/site/tidbit.cfm?nid=46501>
> http://www.edhat.com/site/tidbit.cfm?nid=46501
> By Edhat Subscriber
>
> I was really disturbed yesterday (Saturday) when my son and I saw
> a beautiful little German shepherd inside Trader Joe's on De la
> Vina about 12:30. We smiled and commented on the sweet, very
> submissive dog, wearing a guide-dog harness and choke collar. It
> turned its eyes toward us and the woman with it began repeated
> jerking very hard on the choke collar and yelling NO! to it. We
> didn't say anything about that but told her what a beautiful dog
> she had and asked how old it was. She said "Two! And it's in
> training!" and yelled NO! at the dog again, jerking the choke
> violently, and walking off. I said to my son "Bummer for that
> dog" quietly and at that moment the woman and another across the
> way that seemed to be with her - both at least 15 feet away
> inside the busy store began yelling something like "Mind your own
> business!". My son and I could not get the look of that dog's
> eyes out of our minds all day.
>
> Is there a local group that trains seeing eye dogs? I would like
> to lodge a complaint with them. This was literally animal cruelty
> - nothing close to proper animal training methods. The women had
> obviously had people comment negatively before as they were very
> hostile.
>
> COMMENT 134828
> 2011-01-09 01:32 PM
>
> They're trying to train the dog to ignore people and do its job,
> and you were interfering. I would have told you off worse than
> that if I were the trainer.
>
>
> ROGER DODGER
> 2011-01-09 01:37 PM
>
> I would call animal control. There's no reason to abusivly train
> a dog like that.
>
>
> COMMENT 134834
> 2011-01-09 01:39 PM
>
> I understand how you feel. However this dog will one day be a
> guardian and may save a life. Saying this, I wish the training
> could be carried out away from well meaning animal lovers who
> will be naturally disturbed by what they perceive to be a cruel
> way to train a young and obviously perplexed animal, whose
> natural instinct is to be a friend to all.
>
>
> COMMENT 134836P
> 2011-01-09 01:43 PM
>
> Negative reinforcement "training" is so disturbing to see. I wish
> anyone considering owning a dog would watch The Dog Whisperer
> shows first. This lady needs help. Mental help. Not a watch/guide
> dog help. I'm sorry I don't have info for the OP about who to
> call to report and file a claim with. I hope someone posts that
> info.
>
>
> COMMENT 134838P
> 2011-01-09 01:59 PM
>
> This is the contact information to report this. That is in no way
> an approved method of training for guide dogs.
>
>
> Guide Dogs of America
> 13445 Glenoaks Boulevard
> Sylmar, CA 91342
>
>
> Phone: (818) 362-5834
> Fax: (818) 362-6870
> Email:  <mailto:mail at guidedogsofamerica.org>
> mail at guidedogsofamerica.org
>
>
> COMMENT 134840P
> 2011-01-09 02:02 PM
>
> It is difficult to train a dog in public because many folks think
> they are experts or have a different opinion what is
> acceptable/necessary; my grandmother thinks it is cruel that I
> don't let my dog eat at the table! I feel for anyone who has to
> hear about it from strangers who know nothing about the dog or
> situation. If a guide dog looks at you instead of into the
> cross-walk, someone could die. The harness/cape is there not just
> to alert business owners that the dog is allowed inside, but also
> so the general public will leave it and its handler alone. This
> is not a fairy tale world where everything can be accomplished
> with positive reinforcement (with people or dogs), and while I
> didn't witness this particular event I have seen professionals
> get the same kind of flak and accusations of "cruelty" for
> totally reasonable methods. Regardless of how you feel about what
> you saw, working dogs lead some of the best and most well
> adjusted dog lives; if you really want to make a difference for a
> dog, there are plenty at the shelter that actually need your
> intervention . . .
>
>
> COMMENT 134845
> 2011-01-09 02:06 PM
>
> Watch a video and see how wild dogs "train" each other. Training
> any service dog is a noble effort and requires very strict
> rules...You wouldn't want a seeing eye dog being distracted by a
> squirrel and running across a busy street? If you don't know what
> you are talking about, you should probably mind your own
> business.
>
>
> COMMENT 134853
> 2011-01-09 02:30 PM
>
> No, she shouldn't have been rude about it, but a choke chain
> (technically, its a nip collar) is to be used with a strong jerk.
> This is probably what you interrupted as a violent pull. As a dog
> trainer for many years, this is not particularly cruel to the
> animal, it just seems like it to us humans, as we are respond
> best to compassion.
>
>
> Dogs are used to having a pack leader, and if they don't they
> become dominant. A guide dog can't be demonstrating dominant
> behavior, as it will not follow instructions. An example of this
> that you probably see lots of is dogs that go uncontrollably
> barking at surroundings or run up to greet everything around
> them. Although some people may enjoy or tolerate this behavior,
> it works against having a trained dog.
>
> If you were told not to pet the dog, you should be respectful of
> that. Not all creatures are human, dogs have very different
> instincts than us.
>
>
> COMMENT 134869P
> 2011-01-09 03:22 PM
>
> 844: good info, thanks.
>
>
> I'm sure the service dog trainer knows what they are doing. A
> casual observer probably thinks otherwise. On the other hand, you
> should NEVER attempt to contact a trainer with a dog in training.
> I think that's well understood, or at least it should be. I guess
> the original poster needs to be trained about this :-)
>
>
> COMMENT 134882P
> 2011-01-09 04:13 PM
>
> I don't think that yelling "No!" at a dog (or anything) is the
> proper way to train. Nor is yelling in a store, "Mind your own
> business." In effect, this is our business since the reputable
> training facilities are tax deductible.
>
> Never attempt to contact the person doing the training? That's
> bizarre - and not at all my experience. The woman should have
> paused to explain politely what the situation was. I, too, feel
> sorry for that dog --- as well as feeling sorry for anyone who
> will have it subsequently. I hope the observing/reporting person
> does contact the Guide Dog organization.
>
>
> COMMENT 134888
> 2011-01-09 04:28 PM
>
> Once again, the over-anthropomorphizing tendencies of the Edhat
> community to anything animal-related give one serious pause.
>
>
> Are you SURE that this dog was not working, aiding someone who is
> in fact visually impaired??
>
>
> Properly-trained guide dogs can mean life or death for their
> owners. Your interference was neither warranted nor needed. Show
> some respect. Yes, there are animals who are "working" and unless
> you're a PETA-type extremist, you need to accept this reality and
> indeed "mind your own business" in such situations!
>
>
> COMMENT 134903
> 2011-01-09 05:44 PM
>
> 882P: how else are you going to teach your dog what is not good
> behavior besides telling them no?! if you don't, you're going to
> end up with a misbehaved out of control animal. seriously.
>
>
> COMMENT 134915
> 2011-01-09 06:31 PM
>
> Seems like a dog training class I took with Parks and Rec told us
> the first thing to buy was a choke collar and the proper way to
> use it in dog training. A quick jerk which then is a quick
> release was the technique as I recall. It did get the dogs
> attention and one only needs to use it a few times because dogs
> do learn quickly ...... and pretty non-verbally at first.
> Connection a command to the physical restraint was part of the
> early training process.
>
>
> COMMENT 134924P
> 2011-01-09 06:58 PM
>
> I considered raising and training a puppy to be a guide dog. One
> of the prerequisites is to attend several group sessions with
> trainers and their puppies. I soon realized I could not be as
> strict with a puppy as required, at least in the settings I
> observed ...
>
>
> COMMENT 134930P
> 2011-01-09 07:24 PM
>
> It's not over-anthrophomorphising (ten dollar word alert) to be
> concerned for the welfare of an animal.
>
>
> Even if this dog is a working breed, doing it's job, basic
> humanity still applies.
> Not to mention that anyone who knows anything about dogs realizes
> that this approach will get you the opposite of what you want and
> you'll end up with deeper troubles later on with the dog. If you
> don't understand that, you're really not understanding dogs. Call
> if what you want.
>
>
> COMMENT 134937
> 2011-01-09 07:44 PM
>
> @930P Actually, over-anthropomorphizing is exactly what it is
> when one doesn't comprehend this basic distinction between a
> visually-impaired human and an animal doing "it's" [sic]
> (grammatically-challenged alert) job in the context of its very
> specialized training.
>
>
> COMMENT 134940
> 2011-01-09 07:50 PM
>
> Basic humanity applies to dog training? What a perfect example of
> anthrophomorphising!
>
>
> COMMENT 134944P
> 2011-01-09 08:02 PM
>
> You can make fun all your want, but a the end of the day, I have
> a very well behaved dog and I make no apologies for treating him
> with respect and taking the time to learn about dogs instead of
> make fun of people who care about their well being.
>
>
> COMMENT 134949P
> 2011-01-09 08:57 PM
>
> I trained my dogs with a choke collar and had happy dogs. I also
> yell NO at my dogs. It does get their attention. I have actually
> yelled NO at my child. However, if the OP thought she was
> observing abusive behavior, then a call to the appropriate
> training organizations (probably printed on the dogs vest)
> expressing concern might be in order. If a particular trainer has
> too many complaints, then maybe they are abusive. However, I
> would never try to speak to someone who was actively training a
> service dog. I might ask questions when they are being socialized
> or not working/training. I would be interested in hearing how
> some people raised their children using ONLY positive
> reinforcement and NO negative consequences.
>
>
> DAVID A. PRITCHETT
> 2011-01-09 09:16 PM
>
> This is how dog training happens. We could post comments about
> how dogs behave when they are not trained effectively.
>
>
> COMMENT 134953P
> 2011-01-09 10:01 PM
>
> Dogs in the wild are even more aggressive to their mates when
> they establish order in the pack. It may have been extreme to
> you, but chances are this person knew what they were doing.
>
>
> Disclaimer: This comment was carefully written as to avoid any
> hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia.
>
> 'nuff said.
>
>
> COMMENT 134954P
> 2011-01-09 10:02 PM
>
> Dogs aren't children. Positive reinforcement works perfectly well
> with dogs. Humans not so much. You can tell from this very thread
> that most humans crave negative attention, but not so dogs.
>
> Now who is in an anthropomorphic tailspin?
>
>
> COMMENT 134955P
> 2011-01-09 10:07 PM
>
> Raising human children has nothing to do with training a service
> dog.
>
>
> COMMENT 134958P
> 2011-01-09 10:15 PM
>
> 132953P, dogs in the wild have completely different social
> communication with each other than domestic dogs. What they do
> with each other in the wild has no bearing on how we should train
> them. We're people. They communicate and understand us in a
> totally different way than they do each other. We don't speak the
> same language. It's our job to learn to speak their language in a
> way they can understand, not vice versa. A person being
> aggressive with a dog never knows what they are doing.
>
>
>
>
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>
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