[nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights

Jordan Gallacher jgallacher1987 at gmail.com
Sun Jan 30 22:13:37 UTC 2011


That was anot subjective and 
Jordan

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Marsha Drenth
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 3:57 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights

Jordan,

Do not treat me like I am a 5 year old. I have had guides from both GDB and
TSE. And a I am probably old enough to be your mother. 

My point was that if you call it custom training or if someone else calls it
properly using a guide are very subjective and tread on a very fine line. As
I know most of the schools encourage customizing the dog when you get home,
but what we see as a "task" that a dog might need to do for us, might be a
"task" that a school, or someone else might not see as proper. 

One more subject that as guide dog users, we do not need to judge or jump to
conclusions on how others "use" their dogs. 

Marsha  
Co-Moderator


-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Jordan Gallacher
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 4:30 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights

Have you ever heard of customized training?  That is something at least GDB
encourages, and my dog does things that I need her to do that she wasn't
trained for.
Jordan

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Marsha Drenth
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 3:22 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights

So lets see if I understand you correctly. If a user graduates from a guide
school, and they take the pup home. And they for whatever reasons they have
other disabilities train the pup to do different tasks, other than guiding,
then this is NOT using the pup properly? Who is to say what is properly, and
what is not properly? We all have different definitions of this. If the
person is using the guide to navigate, isn't that using the pup properly? So
if that same guide dog is used to find a chair, when some of the schools do
not do this training with a user, is this to mean the owner is not using the
guide properly? 

  



-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Jordan Gallacher
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 3:58 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights

Used properly means being used as a guide dog.  It has happened where people
get a guide dog and take it home and turn it into a pet.  That is only a
small part, but I will leave it at that.
Jordan

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Steven Johnson
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:52 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights

Please expand on what you mean by *being used properly?*

If a school accepts one's application, that means that they have also
checked and crossed checked references, have conducted potential interviews
and more.  If you can just expand on your line of thought that would help us
to better understand where you are coming from.  Thanks,

Steve



-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Jordan Gallacher
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:40 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights

No, the school needs to have a way to make sure that the dog is being used
properly and have an easy way to take back the dog if need be.  You can go
through the entire training process and get home and never use, mis handle,
etc the dog.
Jordan

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Nimer Jaber
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:36 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights

Jordan,

I find this to be ludicrous. If the school trusted you enough after
their extensive app process to get you there, to train you, to hand
over the dog to you and allow you to leave their campus, surely they
can be comfortable enough to give you ownership? What is the point of
an application if they're not giving you ownership and they're going
to make sure that you take careo f your dog for a year? Shouldn't they
just do that instead of an application process lasting months,
requiring a home interview, countless references, etc etc? Just to
clarify, I agree with the interview process, I just find that the
schools retaining ownership to be silly. This would save them costs.
This would save them the headache. And as has already been pointed
out, we aren't children. If someone can't handle their dog, there are
channels that can be followed to get that animal removed.

Thanks.

On 30/01/2011, Jordan Gallacher <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Here is how ownership should be.  The school should own the dog for no
more
> than the first year or until the school knows that the user is properly
> using the dog.
> Jordan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Steven Johnson
> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:04 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users';
'Blind
> Talk Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>
> Peter,
>
> This is an interesting idea.  One thing that I don't believe you touched
on,
> or may have indirectly, is the issue of ownership which has been an
ongoing
> issue of discussion among the dog guide community and NAGDU for a very
long
> time.  This might be one way to at least bring this a little closer to
> creating something that addresses this.
>
> Again, an interesting idea.  I will be eager to hear what others think.
>
> Steve
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Peter Donahue
> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 1:48 PM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Cc: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>
>
> Hello everyone,
>
>     The situation Marion posted about concerning Fidelco's removal of dogs
> from graduates without detailed bonified reasons for doing so along with
> other issues concerning the treatment of students in training and gradutes
> of guide dog programs is leading me to believe that perhaps the best way
to
> address them is through legislation I'll refer to as a "Guide Dog
Handler's
> Bill of Rights." Such legislation would require guide dog programs among
> other things to give valid reasons for the removal of someone's dog and an
> appeals  procedure to be put in place should a guide dog handler feel
he/she
>
> has been wrongly accused of mistreatment of the dog. Yes it's true there
are
>
> irresponsible guide dog handlers among us just as there are irresponsible
> individuals in our society. This is no reason to treat the blind like
> children.
>
> The failure of Fidelco to give the graduate in question valid reasons for
> the removal of the dog is a situation we should not tolerate and need to
put
>
> a stop to. Leader Dogs has also behaved in a similar way towards its
> graduates. If memory serves me correctly a Leader Dog Graduate's dog was
> removed from them during a recent national convention. And as I recall
there
>
> was insufficient reasons for the removal of that dog from its handler.
>
>     A Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights could require all guide dog
programs
> to give their graduates full ownership of their dogs upon successful
> completion of their programs. I emphasize the word "Successful."
>
>         Another issue the legislation could address is communication
between
>
> guide dog handlers and puppy raisers. In most cases this isn't an issue.
> Sadly there is at least one U.S. guide dog organization that refuzes to
> offer their graduates and puppy raisers the opportunity to communicate
> directly with each other. The Seeing Eye only permits communication
between
> the two parties through the school. It removes all contact information
from
> correspondence from notes passed between the two parties. Such a custodial
> practice also subjects both parties to censorship of such correspondence
by
> the school. Has this organization and others that may have similar
practices
>
> forgotten that they're dealing with adults who must learn to manage their
> life's affairs including how communication between themselves and their
> dog's puppy raiser will occur if it does at all. This decision should rest
> with the parties in question and not the dictates of a guide dog program
> that thinks it is doing the right thing when in reallity it is doing more
> harm than good.
>
>     A guide dog handler's Bill of Rights would require guide dog programs
to
>
> establish procedures for facilitating direct communication between its
> graduates and puppy raisers and would prohibit the removal of contact
> information it may pass between them.
>
>     A number of Seeing Eye graduates have discussed this matter with the
> school only to receive one excuse after another. And oh yes. As was told
to
> Marion by Fidelco concerning the graduate who's dog was wrongly removed
the
> same old fashion voodoo about confidentiality and privacy are touted
> concerning direct communication between puppy handlers and guide dog
school
> graduates. Programs like the Seeing Eye and others with similar practices
> would do well to enter the new Milennium on this matter or face the
> possibility of a legislative mandate to do so. Guide dog handlers have a
> right to learn about their dog's up-bringing. Who best to provide that
> information than the dog's puppy raiser.
>
>     One Seeing Eye Instructor told me that when one adopts a child contact
> information for the child's former parents is withheld. The same should be
> done in the case of guide dog puppy raisers and SE'S graduates. I wouldn't
> be pressed to want such information from an adoption agency in the first
> place. As the child becomes a part of the family and begins to share
his/her
>
> background I'd have a way to get the information I need to be a more
> effective parent. A dog is unable to communicate such information to its
> owner. I have had guide dogs from several guide dog schools and had no
> issues with communication between myself and the dog's raiser. I have very
> specific requirements any future guide dog program would need to me if I'm
> to seek training from them. Because all guide dog programs have one less
> then desireable practice or another switching schools to address the puppy
> raiser communication issue is not an option. No self-respecting blind
> individual should be put in such a predicament. Let's make sure graduates
of
>
> all guide dog programs have the opportunity to communicate directly with
> their dog's puppy family if they choose to do so.
>
>     These are just two issues a "Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights" could
> address. I'm sure folks on these lists can think of more. It's an idea
worth
>
> considering to help put an end to practices many of us find demeaning and
> offensive. Thanks for reading.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
>
>
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