[nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights

PICKRELL, REBECCA M (TASC) REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com
Mon Jan 31 18:54:39 UTC 2011


Or when it does, you think "I could go take my dog for a walk, or I could get a nice glass of wine and go sit by myself for a little while". The energy level and mindset for dogs and humans is the same, and sometimes, you just are out of the kind of energy you need tow ork a dog. Unless you've done both, you really do not get it.

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of solsticesinger
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 1:34 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights

But, sometimes, the opportunity does not present itself. That was the point
I was trying to make.

Shannon and Caroline
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jordan Gallacher" <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights


> Common sense?  If you think about it, you will realize that maybe there
> are
> other factors that I did not mention.  Common sense would be to get the
> dog
> out for even a short time if the opportunity presents itself.
> Jordan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of solsticesinger
> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 11:44 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>
> So, if Rebecca still worked her dog, what should she have done? Said, "Oh
> well, sick child. You're going to have to get bundled up and go out,
> because
>
> I need to work my dog?"
>
> If you're going to make judgments about what people should or shouldn't
> do,
> could you please apply some common sense before doing so?
> Shannon and Caroline
> Are you a fan of women's music? If so, join me, each Wednesday evening
> from
> 7-10 eastern, for The Eclectic Collection: a Celebration of Women In
> Music.
> Point your media player to
> http://mojoradio.us/listen
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jordan Gallacher" <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 12:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>
>
>>I will tell you right now that the dog's needs are just as important as
>> human needs.I don't care if you have a sick family member or not.  If you
>> get a dog, you need to take care of it.
>> Jordan-----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of PICKRELL, REBECCA M (TASC)
>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 11:02 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>
>> Jordan,
>>
>> First of all, a school with such an attitude can take their dog back. I
>> don't need or want a dog that badly.
>> Secondly, most people don't intend to only go out once a week with their
>> dog. I know I didn't. I got to the point with my daughter though that
>> this
>> is what happened. You can't leave an infant home alone, and they sleep
>> and
>> eat at times that the rest of the world does not. I found that my
>> daughter's
>> bedtime was also my time to rest, and when I wasn't doing that, it was my
>> time to do laundry, hang with my husband, stay in touch with friends,
>> play
>> on the computer, basically tasks I could do in my house. Getting a baby
>> ready to go out requires you pack up half the house. It isn't difficult,
>> but
>> it is time consuming.
>> I found that it was easier and easier to just not take my dog because
>> getting the dog ready required yet even more planning, not much, but
>> enough
>> that it did add up.
>> Also, add a kid that is sick to the mix and you have even more fun. And
>> in
>> my case, these were garden variety illnesses, a stomach bug that lasted
>> for
>> two or three days, an ear infection, and most recently a nasty case of
>> RSV.
>> I left my house just once to take my daughter to the doctor. I was home
>> taking care of her during the day, and when my husband got home, you can
>> bet
>> I wasn't wanting to go out anyplace. I was exausted from making sure my
>> daughter breathed properly, from giving her her breathing treatments,
>> monitoring her fever, making sure she drank and went potty, and that sort
>> of
>> thing.
>> Please be a little kinder in your judgements. Most people are not out
>> trying
>> to screw the system. And most people have to think of other things beyond
>> "what's best for the dog". The dog lives in a family and other family
>> members have needs that will at times trump the dog's needs.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Jordan Gallacher
>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 4:28 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>
>> The only reason for not getting out with your dog is if you are injured
>> or
>> if the weather is hazardous to the dog.  Well, in the latter, you
>> shouldn't
>> even be out in it if the weather is that bad.  If you get a dog and only
>> use
>> it once a week, that is a waste of time for the school and you and
>> eventually the school will find out.  Just remember that there are
>> cameras
>> everywhere these days and it is highly possible that any thing ccan be
>> relayed to the school..
>> Jordan
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Cindy Ray
>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 3:20 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>
>> I think to say that someone should not have a dog if he/she gets out with
>> it
>> once a week, or for whatever reason is extremely subjective and
>> judgmental.
>> I think, though, if I got a dog and the school found that I was using
>> that
>> dog as a pet and was rarely getting out with it or a ariety of other
>> kinds
>> of things, it would be well within their right to not give me the
>> opportunity to have another from their school.
>>
>> On Jan 30, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Jordan Gallacher wrote:
>>
>>> Yes,. If you only use the dog once a week, you should not have the dog.
>>> .
>>> Jordan
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Cindy Ray
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:56 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>
>>> Jordan, you hae some pretty amazing ideas on other topics; yet you want
>> your
>>> school to have a year's right to remove your dog. First of all, how can
>>> it
>>> necessarily be proved that the dog isn't being used for the original
>>> purpose. Second, what is that. I mean, what kind of flexibility is there
>> in
>>> that statement. Let's say I get a dog but I only go out once a week. Is
>> that
>>> mishandling of the dog? In a way, yes, or at least it is poor
>>> stewardship
>>> because of the cost of training one. Should that dog be removed from me.
>>> People hae ideas that we are mistreating our dogs all of the time. Who
>>> is
>>> going to prove that I am. How are you going to determine if I am a valid
>>> user in a year if you haven't determined that by the time I leave. If
>>> word
>>> filters down that I sold the dog to a dog fighter or did something
>>> equally
>>> weird, and that word got out, I should never again be allowed to have
>>> another, and I guess I think it would even be fair if that was shared
>>> with
>>> other schools.
>>>
>>> On Jan 30, 2011, at 2:40 PM, Jordan Gallacher wrote:
>>>
>>>> No, the school needs to have a way to make sure that the dog is being
>> used
>>>> properly and have an easy way to take back the dog if need be.  You can
>> go
>>>> through the entire training process and get home and never use, mis
>>> handle,
>>>> etc the dog.
>>>> Jordan
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>>>> Of Nimer Jaber
>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:36 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>>
>>>> Jordan,
>>>>
>>>> I find this to be ludicrous. If the school trusted you enough after
>>>> their extensive app process to get you there, to train you, to hand
>>>> over the dog to you and allow you to leave their campus, surely they
>>>> can be comfortable enough to give you ownership? What is the point of
>>>> an application if they're not giving you ownership and they're going
>>>> to make sure that you take careo f your dog for a year? Shouldn't they
>>>> just do that instead of an application process lasting months,
>>>> requiring a home interview, countless references, etc etc? Just to
>>>> clarify, I agree with the interview process, I just find that the
>>>> schools retaining ownership to be silly. This would save them costs.
>>>> This would save them the headache. And as has already been pointed
>>>> out, we aren't children. If someone can't handle their dog, there are
>>>> channels that can be followed to get that animal removed.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> On 30/01/2011, Jordan Gallacher <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Here is how ownership should be.  The school should own the dog for no
>>>> more
>>>>> than the first year or until the school knows that the user is
>>>>> properly
>>>>> using the dog.
>>>>> Jordan
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of Steven Johnson
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:04 PM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users';
>>>> 'Blind
>>>>> Talk Mailing List'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter,
>>>>>
>>>>> This is an interesting idea.  One thing that I don't believe you
>>>>> touched
>>>> on,
>>>>> or may have indirectly, is the issue of ownership which has been an
>>>> ongoing
>>>>> issue of discussion among the dog guide community and NAGDU for a very
>>>> long
>>>>> time.  This might be one way to at least bring this a little closer to
>>>>> creating something that addresses this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, an interesting idea.  I will be eager to hear what others
>>>>> think.
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of Peter Donahue
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 1:48 PM
>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>> Cc: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>>   The situation Marion posted about concerning Fidelco's removal of
>>>>> dogs
>>>>> from graduates without detailed bonified reasons for doing so along
>>>>> with
>>>>> other issues concerning the treatment of students in training and
>>> gradutes
>>>>> of guide dog programs is leading me to believe that perhaps the best
>>>>> way
>>>> to
>>>>> address them is through legislation I'll refer to as a "Guide Dog
>>>> Handler's
>>>>> Bill of Rights." Such legislation would require guide dog programs
>>>>> among
>>>>> other things to give valid reasons for the removal of someone's dog
>>>>> and
>>> an
>>>>> appeals  procedure to be put in place should a guide dog handler feel
>>>> he/she
>>>>>
>>>>> has been wrongly accused of mistreatment of the dog. Yes it's true
>>>>> there
>>>> are
>>>>>
>>>>> irresponsible guide dog handlers among us just as there are
>> irresponsible
>>>>> individuals in our society. This is no reason to treat the blind like
>>>>> children.
>>>>>
>>>>> The failure of Fidelco to give the graduate in question valid reasons
>> for
>>>>> the removal of the dog is a situation we should not tolerate and need
>>>>> to
>>>> put
>>>>>
>>>>> a stop to. Leader Dogs has also behaved in a similar way towards its
>>>>> graduates. If memory serves me correctly a Leader Dog Graduate's dog
>>>>> was
>>>>> removed from them during a recent national convention. And as I recall
>>>> there
>>>>>
>>>>> was insufficient reasons for the removal of that dog from its handler.
>>>>>
>>>>>   A Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights could require all guide dog
>>>> programs
>>>>> to give their graduates full ownership of their dogs upon successful
>>>>> completion of their programs. I emphasize the word "Successful."
>>>>>
>>>>>       Another issue the legislation could address is communication
>>>> between
>>>>>
>>>>> guide dog handlers and puppy raisers. In most cases this isn't an
>>>>> issue.
>>>>> Sadly there is at least one U.S. guide dog organization that refuzes
>>>>> to
>>>>> offer their graduates and puppy raisers the opportunity to communicate
>>>>> directly with each other. The Seeing Eye only permits communication
>>>> between
>>>>> the two parties through the school. It removes all contact information
>>>> from
>>>>> correspondence from notes passed between the two parties. Such a
>>> custodial
>>>>> practice also subjects both parties to censorship of such
>>>>> correspondence
>>>> by
>>>>> the school. Has this organization and others that may have similar
>>>> practices
>>>>>
>>>>> forgotten that they're dealing with adults who must learn to manage
>> their
>>>>> life's affairs including how communication between themselves and
>>>>> their
>>>>> dog's puppy raiser will occur if it does at all. This decision should
>>> rest
>>>>> with the parties in question and not the dictates of a guide dog
>>>>> program
>>>>> that thinks it is doing the right thing when in reallity it is doing
>> more
>>>>> harm than good.
>>>>>
>>>>>   A guide dog handler's Bill of Rights would require guide dog
>>>>> programs
>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>> establish procedures for facilitating direct communication between its
>>>>> graduates and puppy raisers and would prohibit the removal of contact
>>>>> information it may pass between them.
>>>>>
>>>>>   A number of Seeing Eye graduates have discussed this matter with the
>>>>> school only to receive one excuse after another. And oh yes. As was
>>>>> told
>>>> to
>>>>> Marion by Fidelco concerning the graduate who's dog was wrongly
>>>>> removed
>>>> the
>>>>> same old fashion voodoo about confidentiality and privacy are touted
>>>>> concerning direct communication between puppy handlers and guide dog
>>>> school
>>>>> graduates. Programs like the Seeing Eye and others with similar
>> practices
>>>>> would do well to enter the new Milennium on this matter or face the
>>>>> possibility of a legislative mandate to do so. Guide dog handlers have
>>>>> a
>>>>> right to learn about their dog's up-bringing. Who best to provide that
>>>>> information than the dog's puppy raiser.
>>>>>
>>>>>   One Seeing Eye Instructor told me that when one adopts a child
>>>>> contact
>>>>> information for the child's former parents is withheld. The same
>>>>> should
>>> be
>>>>> done in the case of guide dog puppy raisers and SE'S graduates. I
>>> wouldn't
>>>>> be pressed to want such information from an adoption agency in the
>>>>> first
>>>>> place. As the child becomes a part of the family and begins to share
>>>> his/her
>>>>>
>>>>> background I'd have a way to get the information I need to be a more
>>>>> effective parent. A dog is unable to communicate such information to
>>>>> its
>>>>> owner. I have had guide dogs from several guide dog schools and had no
>>>>> issues with communication between myself and the dog's raiser. I have
>>> very
>>>>> specific requirements any future guide dog program would need to me if
>>> I'm
>>>>> to seek training from them. Because all guide dog programs have one
>>>>> less
>>>>> then desireable practice or another switching schools to address the
>>> puppy
>>>>> raiser communication issue is not an option. No self-respecting blind
>>>>> individual should be put in such a predicament. Let's make sure
>> graduates
>>>> of
>>>>>
>>>>> all guide dog programs have the opportunity to communicate directly
>>>>> with
>>>>> their dog's puppy family if they choose to do so.
>>>>>
>>>>>   These are just two issues a "Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights" could
>>>>> address. I'm sure folks on these lists can think of more. It's an idea
>>>> worth
>>>>>
>>>>> considering to help put an end to practices many of us find demeaning
>> and
>>>>> offensive. Thanks for reading.
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> et
>>>>>
>>>>>
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