[nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
solsticesinger
solsticesinger at gmail.com
Mon Jan 31 23:23:04 UTC 2011
Whoops. One more time out of my hole. She's the moderator. Who shall you
file a complaint with? And, BTW, threatening the moderator isn't the best
way to stay on a list. Just saying.
Shannon and Caroline
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jordan Gallacher" <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
> Julie,
> I will file a formal complaint if you do. People need to stop not reading
> my e-mails before saying things.
> Jordan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Julie J
> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 2:39 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>
> Jordan,
>
> This was rude. You have been warned about this repeatedly. anymore
> rudeness and I will be removing you.
>
> Julie
> NAGDU list moderator
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jordan Gallacher" <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 2:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>
>
>>I never said anything wrong with that. Any more coments? Keep to
>>yourself.
>> Jordan
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Peggy
>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 2:24 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>
>> Oh my, one more comment on this topic and I'm going to keep my big mouth
>> shut because I believe in respecting people's opinions, or I try to.
>> Just
>> because someone isn't working a dog as often as someone else is working
>> their dog doesn't make them a bad handler. There are times when the
>> personal needs of a family have to take top priority over a dog ... such
>> as
>> sick kids, cold winters, etc. We, those of us with children, are not
>> neglecting our dogs, mine gets walked when I can, she gets worked in
>> stores
>> and at appointments, resturaunts, etc. She gets out of the house
>> everytime
>> I go anywhere, whether it be for a short car trip or a 5 mile walk ...
>> but
>> there are days when neither of these things happens. She gets brushed,
>> fed,
>>
>> taken out to park, etc. Just because I am not working my dog as often as
>> some of you are out there does not mean that she should be taken back by
>> the
>>
>> school!!! Everyone has needs when they apply for a dog, which the school
>> knows about, they and only they can decide if a person needs a dog or not
>> ... we will not be going out today, tomorrow, or probably Wednesday
>> either
>> ... we are in a winter weather warning, right now everything's covered
>> with
>> ice, then it's supposed to snow ... call SE because I'm not working my
>> dog
>> for three days, I guess they should come take her back!!! Wow!!
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jordan Gallacher
>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 12:08 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>
>> Julie,
>> If you have a dog, you have the responcibility for that dog and its
>> needs.
>> This is where a guide dog school should repo a dog.
>> Jordan
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Julie J
>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 12:00 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>
>> Jordan,
>>
>> Oh my! I don't know what to say. First you tell Rebecca that what she
>> chooses to do is out of your domain, but then proceed to tell her that
>> retirement was the right choice.
>>
>> Then what you suggest about leaving an infant unattended to take the dog
>> for
>>
>> a walk is called neglect. It is a very criminal offense, can land you in
>> jail and will result in your child being placed in foster care.
>>
>> Julie
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jordan Gallacher" <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 11:34 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>
>>
>>> That is out of my domain to tell you what you should do, but you did the
>>> right thing by retiring the dog. It really comes down to some major
>>> time
>>> management skills. Placed in yuour shoes, I would have taken care of
>>> the
>>> child, and once she is settled down, I would take a quick walk with the
>>> dog
>>> to keep the dog's skills up. I would say no more than 5 to 10 minutes.
>>> Jordan
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of PICKRELL, REBECCA M (TASC)
>>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 11:17 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>
>>> Logestically speaking, what would you have a person do in the situation
>>> I
>>> described to you? Have you ever cared for another human being? Do you
>>> know
>>> what it takes on both a practical and emotional level? I retired my dog,
>>> but
>>> assumming that there is a middle ground, how would you suggest I meet
>>> the
>>> dog's needs and the human family member's needs while making sure that I
>>> stay physically and emotionally healthy?
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Jordan Gallacher
>>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 12:09 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>
>>> I will tell you right now that the dog's needs are just as important as
>>> human needs.I don't care if you have a sick family member or not. If
>>> you
>>> get a dog, you need to take care of it.
>>> Jordan-----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of PICKRELL, REBECCA M (TASC)
>>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 11:02 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>
>>> Jordan,
>>>
>>> First of all, a school with such an attitude can take their dog back. I
>>> don't need or want a dog that badly.
>>> Secondly, most people don't intend to only go out once a week with their
>>> dog. I know I didn't. I got to the point with my daughter though that
>>> this
>>> is what happened. You can't leave an infant home alone, and they sleep
>>> and
>>> eat at times that the rest of the world does not. I found that my
>>> daughter's
>>> bedtime was also my time to rest, and when I wasn't doing that, it was
>>> my
>>> time to do laundry, hang with my husband, stay in touch with friends,
>>> play
>>> on the computer, basically tasks I could do in my house. Getting a baby
>>> ready to go out requires you pack up half the house. It isn't difficult,
>>> but
>>> it is time consuming.
>>> I found that it was easier and easier to just not take my dog because
>>> getting the dog ready required yet even more planning, not much, but
>>> enough
>>> that it did add up.
>>> Also, add a kid that is sick to the mix and you have even more fun. And
>>> in
>>> my case, these were garden variety illnesses, a stomach bug that lasted
>>> for
>>> two or three days, an ear infection, and most recently a nasty case of
>>> RSV.
>>> I left my house just once to take my daughter to the doctor. I was home
>>> taking care of her during the day, and when my husband got home, you can
>>> bet
>>> I wasn't wanting to go out anyplace. I was exausted from making sure my
>>> daughter breathed properly, from giving her her breathing treatments,
>>> monitoring her fever, making sure she drank and went potty, and that
>>> sort
>>> of
>>> thing.
>>> Please be a little kinder in your judgements. Most people are not out
>>> trying
>>> to screw the system. And most people have to think of other things
>>> beyond
>>> "what's best for the dog". The dog lives in a family and other family
>>> members have needs that will at times trump the dog's needs.
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Jordan Gallacher
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 4:28 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>
>>> The only reason for not getting out with your dog is if you are injured
>>> or
>>> if the weather is hazardous to the dog. Well, in the latter, you
>>> shouldn't
>>> even be out in it if the weather is that bad. If you get a dog and only
>>> use
>>> it once a week, that is a waste of time for the school and you and
>>> eventually the school will find out. Just remember that there are
>>> cameras
>>> everywhere these days and it is highly possible that any thing ccan be
>>> relayed to the school..
>>> Jordan
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Cindy Ray
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 3:20 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>
>>> I think to say that someone should not have a dog if he/she gets out
>>> with
>>> it
>>> once a week, or for whatever reason is extremely subjective and
>>> judgmental.
>>> I think, though, if I got a dog and the school found that I was using
>>> that
>>> dog as a pet and was rarely getting out with it or a ariety of other
>>> kinds
>>> of things, it would be well within their right to not give me the
>>> opportunity to have another from their school.
>>>
>>> On Jan 30, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Jordan Gallacher wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes,. If you only use the dog once a week, you should not have the dog.
>>>> .
>>>> Jordan
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Cindy Ray
>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:56 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>>
>>>> Jordan, you hae some pretty amazing ideas on other topics; yet you want
>>> your
>>>> school to have a year's right to remove your dog. First of all, how can
>>>> it
>>>> necessarily be proved that the dog isn't being used for the original
>>>> purpose. Second, what is that. I mean, what kind of flexibility is
>>>> there
>>> in
>>>> that statement. Let's say I get a dog but I only go out once a week. Is
>>> that
>>>> mishandling of the dog? In a way, yes, or at least it is poor
>>>> stewardship
>>>> because of the cost of training one. Should that dog be removed from
>>>> me.
>>>> People hae ideas that we are mistreating our dogs all of the time. Who
>>>> is
>>>> going to prove that I am. How are you going to determine if I am a
>>>> valid
>>>> user in a year if you haven't determined that by the time I leave. If
>>>> word
>>>> filters down that I sold the dog to a dog fighter or did something
>>>> equally
>>>> weird, and that word got out, I should never again be allowed to have
>>>> another, and I guess I think it would even be fair if that was shared
>>>> with
>>>> other schools.
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 30, 2011, at 2:40 PM, Jordan Gallacher wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> No, the school needs to have a way to make sure that the dog is being
>>> used
>>>>> properly and have an easy way to take back the dog if need be. You
>>>>> can
>>> go
>>>>> through the entire training process and get home and never use, mis
>>>> handle,
>>>>> etc the dog.
>>>>> Jordan
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of Nimer Jaber
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:36 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>>>
>>>>> Jordan,
>>>>>
>>>>> I find this to be ludicrous. If the school trusted you enough after
>>>>> their extensive app process to get you there, to train you, to hand
>>>>> over the dog to you and allow you to leave their campus, surely they
>>>>> can be comfortable enough to give you ownership? What is the point of
>>>>> an application if they're not giving you ownership and they're going
>>>>> to make sure that you take careo f your dog for a year? Shouldn't they
>>>>> just do that instead of an application process lasting months,
>>>>> requiring a home interview, countless references, etc etc? Just to
>>>>> clarify, I agree with the interview process, I just find that the
>>>>> schools retaining ownership to be silly. This would save them costs.
>>>>> This would save them the headache. And as has already been pointed
>>>>> out, we aren't children. If someone can't handle their dog, there are
>>>>> channels that can be followed to get that animal removed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 30/01/2011, Jordan Gallacher <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Here is how ownership should be. The school should own the dog for
>>>>>> no
>>>>> more
>>>>>> than the first year or until the school knows that the user is
>>>>>> properly
>>>>>> using the dog.
>>>>>> Jordan
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of Steven Johnson
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:04 PM
>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users';
>>>>> 'Blind
>>>>>> Talk Mailing List'
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is an interesting idea. One thing that I don't believe you
>>>>>> touched
>>>>> on,
>>>>>> or may have indirectly, is the issue of ownership which has been an
>>>>> ongoing
>>>>>> issue of discussion among the dog guide community and NAGDU for a
>>>>>> very
>>>>> long
>>>>>> time. This might be one way to at least bring this a little closer
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> creating something that addresses this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again, an interesting idea. I will be eager to hear what others
>>>>>> think.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of Peter Donahue
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 1:48 PM
>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> Cc: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The situation Marion posted about concerning Fidelco's removal of
>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>> from graduates without detailed bonified reasons for doing so along
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> other issues concerning the treatment of students in training and
>>>> gradutes
>>>>>> of guide dog programs is leading me to believe that perhaps the best
>>>>>> way
>>>>> to
>>>>>> address them is through legislation I'll refer to as a "Guide Dog
>>>>> Handler's
>>>>>> Bill of Rights." Such legislation would require guide dog programs
>>>>>> among
>>>>>> other things to give valid reasons for the removal of someone's dog
>>>>>> and
>>>> an
>>>>>> appeals procedure to be put in place should a guide dog handler feel
>>>>> he/she
>>>>>>
>>>>>> has been wrongly accused of mistreatment of the dog. Yes it's true
>>>>>> there
>>>>> are
>>>>>>
>>>>>> irresponsible guide dog handlers among us just as there are
>>> irresponsible
>>>>>> individuals in our society. This is no reason to treat the blind like
>>>>>> children.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The failure of Fidelco to give the graduate in question valid reasons
>>> for
>>>>>> the removal of the dog is a situation we should not tolerate and need
>>>>>> to
>>>>> put
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a stop to. Leader Dogs has also behaved in a similar way towards its
>>>>>> graduates. If memory serves me correctly a Leader Dog Graduate's dog
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> removed from them during a recent national convention. And as I
>>>>>> recall
>>>>> there
>>>>>>
>>>>>> was insufficient reasons for the removal of that dog from its
>>>>>> handler.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights could require all guide dog
>>>>> programs
>>>>>> to give their graduates full ownership of their dogs upon successful
>>>>>> completion of their programs. I emphasize the word "Successful."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another issue the legislation could address is communication
>>>>> between
>>>>>>
>>>>>> guide dog handlers and puppy raisers. In most cases this isn't an
>>>>>> issue.
>>>>>> Sadly there is at least one U.S. guide dog organization that refuzes
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> offer their graduates and puppy raisers the opportunity to
>>>>>> communicate
>>>>>> directly with each other. The Seeing Eye only permits communication
>>>>> between
>>>>>> the two parties through the school. It removes all contact
>>>>>> information
>>>>> from
>>>>>> correspondence from notes passed between the two parties. Such a
>>>> custodial
>>>>>> practice also subjects both parties to censorship of such
>>>>>> correspondence
>>>>> by
>>>>>> the school. Has this organization and others that may have similar
>>>>> practices
>>>>>>
>>>>>> forgotten that they're dealing with adults who must learn to manage
>>> their
>>>>>> life's affairs including how communication between themselves and
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> dog's puppy raiser will occur if it does at all. This decision should
>>>> rest
>>>>>> with the parties in question and not the dictates of a guide dog
>>>>>> program
>>>>>> that thinks it is doing the right thing when in reallity it is doing
>>> more
>>>>>> harm than good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A guide dog handler's Bill of Rights would require guide dog
>>>>>> programs
>>>>> to
>>>>>>
>>>>>> establish procedures for facilitating direct communication between
>>>>>> its
>>>>>> graduates and puppy raisers and would prohibit the removal of contact
>>>>>> information it may pass between them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A number of Seeing Eye graduates have discussed this matter with
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> school only to receive one excuse after another. And oh yes. As was
>>>>>> told
>>>>> to
>>>>>> Marion by Fidelco concerning the graduate who's dog was wrongly
>>>>>> removed
>>>>> the
>>>>>> same old fashion voodoo about confidentiality and privacy are touted
>>>>>> concerning direct communication between puppy handlers and guide dog
>>>>> school
>>>>>> graduates. Programs like the Seeing Eye and others with similar
>>> practices
>>>>>> would do well to enter the new Milennium on this matter or face the
>>>>>> possibility of a legislative mandate to do so. Guide dog handlers
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> right to learn about their dog's up-bringing. Who best to provide
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> information than the dog's puppy raiser.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One Seeing Eye Instructor told me that when one adopts a child
>>>>>> contact
>>>>>> information for the child's former parents is withheld. The same
>>>>>> should
>>>> be
>>>>>> done in the case of guide dog puppy raisers and SE'S graduates. I
>>>> wouldn't
>>>>>> be pressed to want such information from an adoption agency in the
>>>>>> first
>>>>>> place. As the child becomes a part of the family and begins to share
>>>>> his/her
>>>>>>
>>>>>> background I'd have a way to get the information I need to be a more
>>>>>> effective parent. A dog is unable to communicate such information to
>>>>>> its
>>>>>> owner. I have had guide dogs from several guide dog schools and had
>>>>>> no
>>>>>> issues with communication between myself and the dog's raiser. I have
>>>> very
>>>>>> specific requirements any future guide dog program would need to me
>>>>>> if
>>>> I'm
>>>>>> to seek training from them. Because all guide dog programs have one
>>>>>> less
>>>>>> then desireable practice or another switching schools to address the
>>>> puppy
>>>>>> raiser communication issue is not an option. No self-respecting blind
>>>>>> individual should be put in such a predicament. Let's make sure
>>> graduates
>>>>> of
>>>>>>
>>>>>> all guide dog programs have the opportunity to communicate directly
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> their dog's puppy family if they choose to do so.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These are just two issues a "Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights"
>>>>>> could
>>>>>> address. I'm sure folks on these lists can think of more. It's an
>>>>>> idea
>>>>> worth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> considering to help put an end to practices many of us find demeaning
>>> and
>>>>>> offensive. Thanks for reading.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blinddog3%40charter.n
>>>>>> et
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
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