[nagdu] a blind consumer'sRight toChooserehabtraining(federalregs)

Tami Kinney tamara.8024 at comcast.net
Sat Nov 12 20:43:39 UTC 2011


RJ,

Over the past nearly 13 years, it has become very apparent to me that in 
Oregon, the VR system is not much governed by the decisions and quirks 
of individual counselors, but definitely comes from the top down and is 
a matter of established practice. The quote from Dr. Jernigan holds very 
true here, and has been so self-reinforcing by now for so many decades, 
that the resulting blind culture has become hardened almost beyond any 
ability to communicate nonconforming thoughts and ideas. Or to get 
answers to questions that do not come straight from the agency word and 
tone perfect. I have observed this over and over throughout the blind 
culture, not just in any one section of it. Nonconformity to that 
underlying culture is not for the faint of heart.

I figured out years ago that the application of informed choice here is 
what you describe having experienced in Florida. We will inform you of 
your choices. You will act on the choices we make for you.

The response to even basic questions is, well, informative if not in the 
way one would hope. Thirteen years of trying to find a way around that 
barrier has gotten me a whole lot of frustration. Sigh.

For myself, I've decided that I am so much better off without having to 
deal with the agency that I've just put my time and energy into 
recovering from not having caught on soon enough. My resulting financial 
and health situation have made that a long, grueling and slow process, 
but with every plateau I reach, my speed of progress picks up a little 
more. It's exhausting, but I'm getting there... In more and more areas 
of life, actually, which stuns me when I take time out to notice that.

So now when people ask me about VR, what do I tell them? Not a clue. 
Except to give them information and ideas to counteract the attitudes 
towards blindness that come from the agency and are now a foundation 
stone of the world view of the blind culture. When I am talking to 
another blind person I've only just met in whatever venue, about any 
subject at all, I can pretty much rest assured that I will hear, Well, 
The Blind cant..." Or, "well you know how the Blind are..." and so on. 
Finding a nonconfrontational yet effective means to communicate past 
that sort of thing has not been easy. I've sort of settled on an 
approach I can live with that does appear to bring a glimmer of new 
thought to the person who just told me that the Blind can't do most of 
what I do or that The Blind just do something I would never do because 
of how The Blind are that I am not... Sigh. Much practice of Zen for me 
and deep calming breaths before speaking.

The Blind can't really learn braille, you know, it's just too hard for 
them so they don't try.

Well, you have to understand that The Blind just want people to give 
them free things so that's why the agency doesn't want you to find out 
enough about braille displays for your employer to purchase one for you 
so you can keep working.

You can't expect the agency to provide you with a braille display or 
help you get braille textbooks for college because The Blind can't 
really learn anyway. You can just go to class, since nobody is going to 
expect anything more from you.

  The agency needs to make sure that The Blind aren't taking scarce 
resources from blind people who need them.

We don't talk about it; we don't want to cause trouble for the agency 
because they're under attack from the state auditors and the Ways and 
Means committee.

The agency doesn't have to provide VR services, you know, if they don't 
want to. SO you just have to cooperate with them and be patient with 
them or else they will not provide services to you. Just do everything 
they tell you to do and maybe you can convince them that you are worth 
giving a little training to. Or maybe they will help you buy a talking 
watch or something like that.

Well, you shouldn't try to ... The Blind can't really do that, so you 
need to find something to do for a little bit of money that you actually 
can do. That way you can feel better about yourself and you might have a 
little extra spending money to go to lunch witha friend or something 
nice like that. You can maybe make some nice friends at work, so that 
will help you with  The Depression from   The Loneliness and The Isolation.

Listen to your counselor who knows what you can do and what you should do.

Always cross the street at an audible signal, because that way you know 
it's safe to go. My instructor told me to just listen for the tone to 
change then step out across the street as quickly as I can so I can get 
to the other side before the signal changes. That's what you should do.

As I said, much practice of Zen and deep calming breaths on my part. 
That's not actually all of the repeated phrases all in the same tone I 
hear all the time from other blind people. Since I also got to hear them 
first from the agency...

Now I'm reading some of them again in quotes in newspaper articles about 
the latest audit and the pressure from the Secrtary of State on the 
Board to get things sgraightened up. If everyone would stop pointing 
fingers and whining like children... Oh, I love that one, too. I first 
heard that years ago when I expressed some frustration with the income I 
was losing and the extra medical bills I hadn't been expecting and how 
much more income I needed from working if only I could get the toolsto 
do the reading.

Yes, indeed, the first thing I needed to do about that was to stop 
pointing fingers and whining. ZZen. It's all about the Zen. Urgh!

Oh, just to tie this in to keep it not completely off topic: Your O&M 
instructor can teach you how to get a guide dog and will tell you what 
you need to know about how to take care of it. Maybe then if you talk to 
the guide dog school, they will let you have a dog...

Drumroll, please!

Tami

On 11/11/2011 04:18 PM, RJ Sandefur wrote:
> See that's how it is here in Florida. The councilor's dictate instead of
> allowing you to make an informed choice. Why is their a 74 percent
> unemployment rate among the blind? because all the working aged blind
> are working in a vending stand because councilor knows best! The NFB has
> been around for almost 75 or more years, but when you really get down to
> it, what have the blind really accomplished? Not much of anything.
> Jerigan said its a cycle The agencies for the blind give bad teaching
> skills, which leads to wrong misconceptions of the blind person to the
> general public. We have three blindness training centers, but these are
> not schools. Alot of times, kids are sent to a blindness school, from
> the time they're five years old, until they graduate, and then when they
> get out into the world, they don't know how to adjust. So, what should
> we the blind do? Get them when they're young, so that when they graduate
> from high school, they won't need to go to the NFB center, because they
> already have the training. RJ
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brenda" <bjnite at windstream.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 6:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a blind consumer'sRight
> toChooserehabtraining(federalregs)
>
>
>> Hey Tami
>>
>> that is what happens in my state. Once they had a Consumer Advisory
>> Counsel that said some true, uncomplimentary stuff about the
>> counselors. The counselors were insulted because the counselors had
>> Masters degrees and who were these ungrateful consumers. I read the
>> minutes and heard the counselors angry comments because I worked for
>> the Agency.
>>
>> Then as a consumer after I was forced out of the agency due to an
>> office move, I had a whole slew of problems getting what I knew I
>> needed. I found out a rehab tech had told the counselor the exact
>> opposite about what he and I discussed. I protested and had my case
>> closed in frustration.
>>
>> Instead of learning our rights etc., I would just like to know the
>> States where rehab professionals really help the most consumers and
>> work with them as a team instead of dictating what the client needs
>> and giving anyone who asks for choices etc. a hard time.
>>
>> When I had my issues, I didn't know of anyone to help me. Even if I
>> did, it is an exhausting process and i want to enjoy life and not
>> spend all my time fighting with people. If I had things to do over,
>> and had access to the internet, I would have moved to the State where
>> the rehab people are known to be more helpful.
>> Brenda
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/11/2011 6:22 PM, Tami Kinney wrote:
>>> So what do you do, then, when you do your homework before you make
>>> your first call and know what your needs are and formulate your
>>> requests according to that in line with what the law and the policies
>>> and procedures are and..And get nowhere. For years.
>>>
>>> What if you keep hearing that this is what happens to virtually
>>> everyone you talk to.
>>>
>>> What if you learn that there is no recorse, that the agency is not
>>> following the laws or the rules and regs because they don't actually
>>> have to? Because there is no one to make them?
>>>
>>> Then where are you?And where are all your friends and acquaintances
>>> and what do you tell them when they ask you what do do?
>>>
>>> Tami.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/11/2011 12:40 PM, Larry D. Keeler wrote:
>>>> You don't march in, you ease in and tell your counsellor what you'd
>>>> like
>>>> to do and ask them how it can be accomplished.
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "RJ Sandefur"
>>>> <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 2:49 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a blind consumer's Right
>>>> toChooserehabtraining(federalregs)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> How is a blind consumer suposed to just march into their councilors
>>>>> office, and tell him or her I want this or that? The councilor's know
>>>>> these regulations back and forwards... They have excuses for
>>>>> everything. Really this should be for the rehab councilor list. RJ
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Criminal Justice Major
>>>>> Extraordinaire" <orleans24 at comcast.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 2:39 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a blind consumer's Right to
>>>>> Chooserehabtraining(federalregs)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi, larry,
>>>>>> I'll agree with you on this one and leave it alone too.
>>>>>> Since I don't know that much about those individuals, will leave it
>>>>>> as that.
>>>>>> *Smiles*
>>>>>> Bibi and Odie
>>>>>> the happy spirited bounty labra wolf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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