[nagdu] Stress Issues
Tami Kinney
tamara.8024 at comcast.net
Tue Sep 6 17:46:06 UTC 2011
Ann, Steve and Cindy,
In a dog's first year, with a first-time -- essentially in Lora's case
-- guide dog handler, it's really a complex of factors, including the
age and breed of dog, and all those intensive influences that went into
the dog's raising prior to its return to the kennel life for guide dog
training. So that does make it difficult to diagnose from a distance and
offer helpful suggestions.
Lora, I'm wondering if your school has sent out a trainer to observe the
dog at home and to observe the two of you together, and your roommate at
home... Well, a trainer visit is still a fairly artificial scenario for
her/him to observe a real dog to try to diagnose and come up with
solutions for real daily life at home. Hm..I'm just speculating and
thinking aloud here, but some observation over time seems to me that it
would be most useful to help the trainer work with you to diagnose and
devise reasonable solutions to bring the dog up to a better level of
home manners. Given the demands of your regular lifestyle on time and
energy, though, I don't know if you would have that kind of time
yourself. That's what frustrating when it comes to guide dogs. First, as
others have mentioned, there's the influence of others during the newly
minted guide dog's formative years. And there are the needs of a
handler, as well. I've heard from or talked to several people in as many
years who simply find themselves unable to deal with problem behaviors
at home even though the dog has great guide work. When I listen to them
telling about it, I can hear the sadness they feel by just talking that
way about a dog they truly love and have a deep bond with. But other
concerns in their lives make it just not doable for them to address
destructive or dangerous puppy behaviors in a trained guide dog. And,
honestly, while a two year old (ish) dog will still have a lot of puppy
left to mature through, it should be reasonable to expect that it will
have enough of a foundation of good home manners that it's not going to
get into things that will injure it to the extent you can't let it be
off leash in the house even when you're there... Which is what it sounds
like you're facing. Or have I misunderstood?
Trying to think back over everything I remember from your prior
experiences, it seems that you faced some health problems that were
quite serious in one or both of those dogs, as well as dangerous
problems with their guide work. Is that right? But those two were fine
at home... So, different school, different dog with good guide work but
problematic house manners...
I agree with Steve that any handler does need to consider her/his
influence on one or more dogs once they're the team is home after
graduation. However, I'm also with Ann in believing that problems with a
young dog in the first year are likely to have come home with the dog.
Some handlers are willing and able to work through it; others are not.
Which is no criticism to them! If any given handler simply does not have
the right factors in place -- including extra time and energy -- then
how can they be expected to correct serious issues in a nearly mature
dog?
Well, blame isn't the issue, but figuring out where a behavior came from
and analyzing yourself now that you are the primary influence on the dog
is essential for diagnosis. If there's a change you can make in your
interactions with the dog that will bring it up to your needs in the
house, since you seem very happy with its work and the dog itself
otherwise, then that's great because you simply need to make minor
changes that you are in total control of. /smile/
Certainly, your concerns about the dog's stress are valid since at this
time, the dog is not able to be free to be a dog without possible injury
or illness... Must be very frustrating. And now I'm trying to remember
if I mentioned the value of a good bone to chew -- or some approximation
thereof. You may already provide that for your dog, so I won't belabor
the point. /smile/ We're out of bones for at least the next couple of
days and I'm bummed because the dogs will make my evenings very busy and
irritating because they believe it is up to me to entertain if I don't
come up with a bone for them to mess with each other over. /lol/ So I
have a bone obsession! Um... Oh, never mind.
I was thinking that a low dose of one of the herbal anti-anxiety,
calming remedies out there might be helpful in the evening, as well.
Rescue Remedy remains one of my favorites for Daisy dog, although we
rarely need it anymore. Unless we're traveling and she's just too
excited to contain herself. /shudder/ But that's a whole 'nother
ballgame, that there is. A low dose while you're relaxing with your dog
at home, or when you're studying and need your dog to not be eating
safety pins or chewing your roommate's shoes could be a start. Dunno.
Just a thought.
Also, since your busy young student life with all that entails
In general, when people describe how they have to watch their dogs like
a hawk at home or keep them strictly contained, it always confuses me
for some reason... Then I remember all the crap I got over my poodle pup
from people who would insist that all guide dogs are perfect at home all
the time, , as well as in harness, never set a foot out of line, etc.,
etc. Since my adolescent blank slate poodle puppy was not perfect, then
I needed to just give up on her because she wasn't guide dog material
because she was so rowdy around the house. Also, I needed to feed her
the exact strict regimen suited to an adult lab. Or else! Well, the or
else was often that the person I had not asked for help there wasn't
going to help me anymore, so you see, what they said was true. I just
stopped having people like that in my house, so they couldn't help me
because I'm just uncooperative, right? Good grief!
Apparently, I'm not as over that as I think I am because I am constantly
shocked to learn that guide dogs are not absolutely perfect all the
time, even when they're at home just being dogs outside of working
hours. /lol/ Also, I'm always a bit nervous that some of you perfect
guide dog users with your perfect dogs will find out about Mitzi's now
occasional forays into Big Trouble... Then I catch myself, of course.
And just deal with the behavior in the way we learned to while she was
growing up and an adolescent terror! Same with Daisy, though with her
it's still rehab, just not as difficult or as all consuming. But she's
not a guide edog at all; when you take on a pup or an adult dog in need
of rehab, you can't expect the kind of behavior you would in a grown,
professional raised and trained guide dog..
Anyway, not useful information there, just a little quirk of mine from
back when. /smiel/
Let us know how it goes, Lora, and what works for you and yours and even
what doesn't. If I think of anything useful, I'll be sure to let you
know.
Tami
On Mon, 2011-09-05 at 16:36 -0500, Steven Johnson wrote:
> Ann,
> There seems to be items pointed out that everything but the possibility that
> the handler could be part of the problem. So, I think it is fair to say
> that we agree to disagree. I am not by any means saying that schools are
> perfect or are dogs, but at some level, the handler needs to assess their
> skills and abilities as a handler because at some point, some people are
> just not cut out to be guide dog handlers. You can't tell me that if a
> person gets 3 dogs from 3 different schools, or 3 dogs from the same school
> and the same problems keep popping up, that there aren't some handler
> concerns? When looking at such situations in their totality, all things
> need to be considered and differentially diagnosed as they are slowly but
> surely ruled out...including handler issues.
>
> Respectfully, Steve
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Ann Edie
> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2011 2:41 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Stress Issues
>
> Hi, Steve, Lora, and Everybody,
>
> Steve, the implied answer to your rhetorical question about the root of
> behavior problems in guide dogs is, "the handler." However, I don't think
> this is necessarily a fair answer. It could as well be "the breeding
> program" or "the puppy-raising program" or "genetics" or "the nature of
> dogs" or many other answers which I haven't thought of off the top of my
> head, that has caused the problems.
>
> I think it is unfair to blame the handler for all behavior issues in guide
> dogs or in pet dogs for that matter. Sometimes it truly is that a dog is
> not cut out to be a guide dog 24 hours per day, that the only way that dog
> made it through training was because it was only worked for an hour per day
> and was then put back in the kennels where there was no opportunity to
> counter surf, chew up everything in the bathroom wastepaper baskets, eat the
>
> kids toys and everyone's clothes and shoes, steal a whole roast or a stick
> of butter off the dining room table, and dash out the door any time he isn't
>
> tied down. The trainers/instructors never see these behaviors because they
> don't live with the dogs. And if a dog comes to the blind handler with
> these behaviors established in his history, even if the handler follows to
> the letter the instructions of the program as to how to gradually allow the
> dog more freedom in the house and religiously performs obedience exercises
> daily and gives the dog opportunities to play and release stress, etc., the
> unwanted behaviors will most likely appear as soon as opportunity presents
> itself and will be extremely difficult to change because they are so
> reinforcing to the dog.
>
> In my own case, I had had several pet dogs which I had raised from puppies
> before I got my first guide dog. My pets were always very well-behaved in
> the house as well as in public, and had many admirers who expressed their
> willingness to offer my dogs a home if a situation ever occured which
> prevented me from keeping them. I also competed in obedience with several
> of my pet dogs, so I know something of formal obedience as well as just good
>
> manners in dogs.
>
> My first guide was not only a fine working guide but also had the house
> manners I expected. He could be left off-leash in the house without fear
> that he would eat the kids' toys or food from the counters, or, after a
> little training, even the food in the pet dog's bowl. He waited for
> permission to go through the door and had a reliable recall. And I didn't
> have to go through any herculean efforts to achieve this result. That dog
> performed his guide tasks admirably and lived as a beloved member of my
> family for 9 years, until his death. At the time, I didn't consider any of
> this extraordinary. I thought it was just what was to be expected of a
> highly trained and specially bred guide dog.
>
> My next 2 guide dogs were completely different. They had horrible house
> manners and terrible prey drive. They showed lots of stress symptoms, such
> as losing hair, chewing on their legs and feet, having relieving accidents
> indoors, having feeding problems, and losing weight. Dealing with these two
>
> dogs and trying to salvage the partnerships with each of them was
> emotionally devastating as well as physically exhausting to me. If I hadn't
>
> had the background with my pet dogs and my first guide dog that I had, I
> surely would have been convinced that I was simply a poor handler who
> couldn't maintain the precious investment of time and effort that had gone
> into producing these special dogs. And the often stated opinion expressed
> by long-time dog handlers on lists such as this one, that problems in guide
> dogs after placement were almost invariably due to lax discipline on the
> part of the blind handler, certainly did not help or support me in my time
> of struggle.
>
> In the end, I had to conclude that further efforts to keep working with
> those dogs were not going to succeed, and that their return to the school
> was the only viable solution. Neither of those dogs was reissued to another
>
> blind handler, although both were certainly young enough to make this the
> logical course of action, if it had been a "mismatch" or poor choice of
> handler which had caused the problems with these dogs.
>
> In other words, my considered opinion is that the guide dog training
> programs are not perfect. They do occasionally put out dogs which are not
> temperamentally suited to be guides and dogs which cannot take the stress of
>
> full-time guide work, as opposed to being a dog in training. From what Lora
>
> has said, it sounds as if she has sought and followed the advice of her
> training program on how to deal with the issues that have come up with her
> dog. It sounds as if she has made sincere efforts to retrain the dog and to
>
> manage the undesirable behaviors. I would not want Lora to feel that she is
>
> somehow to blame for her dog's poor house manners or dangerous behaviors,
> either because she was not rigorous enough in her discipline or because she
> was too strict and controlling of her dog's every move.
>
> Certainly, the types and amounts of unwanted behavior that each of us is
> willing or able to live with in our animal companions differs, and may
> differ with our living arrangements and family circumstances as well as
> other lifestyle variables. But I don't think there is anything wrong with
> having a bottom line when it comes to behavior, either in the home or in
> public, either guide work behaviors or companion or social behaviors.
>
> Lora wrote asking for ways that she might use to relieve stress in her dog.
> How about we just answer her question without adding to both her own stress
> and that of the dog?
>
> In that vain, Lora, have you found any safe fenced place, such as a tennis
> court or fenced yard, where you can play supervised games with your dog such
>
> as tug-o-war or fetching games, where there are not too many things that he
> can get in trouble with? When he is indoors, can you keep him on leash so
> that he goes with you wherever you move rather than putting him on a tie
> where he has to stay in one place? Have you tried giving him his food in
> one of the puzzle toys where he has to work to get the food out a piece at a
>
> time? Have you used T-Touch or massage with him for relaxation? Have you
> played little training games with him (on leash) where you have someone drop
>
> a piece of food (or paper) or something that is not too attractive to him
> and then reward him instantly with a higher value treat for not diving for
> the dropped item immediately? Does he have favorite chew toys available to
> him frequently? Does he know explicitly which objects are his own to do
> what he wants with and which objects are not his and are entirely off
> limits? Has he been checked out by a vet for medical reasons for his stress
>
> level or for causes of some of his obsessive behaviors?
>
> I hope you will be able to find ways to help your dog relax while at the
> same time helping him behave in acceptable ways so that you can all live
> together comfortably. And, if nothing works and you find that you simply
> cannot continue to live and work with this dog for your own peace of mind
> and for his safety, then don't think it is your fault in any way. You have
> given it a good try, and that is all that we can do. If the dog is not cut
> out for the job, then he will never be happy in that life. Hopefully, if it
>
> comes to that decision, there is a wonderful dog out there just waiting to
> be your guide and companion, and there is a wonderful family somewhere who
> would be delighted to have your dog as a pampered pet.
>
> Best,
> Ann
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steven Johnson" <blinddog3 at charter.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2011 1:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Stress Issues
>
>
> >A good friend of mine pointed out to me after I made a comment how all of
> >my
> > dogs had similar habits. They simply said, in a question, and what is the
> > common denominator? This made me think very closely to what I was doing
> > right and those things I let slide. I also know of others who have had a
> > number of dogs in a short period of time, and I always simply ask this
> > question. So, what is the common denominator?
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> > Of Cindy Ray
> > Sent: Monday, September 05, 2011 10:44 AM
> > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Stress Issues
> >
> > Wow! I don't think "I guess this dog just can't be an off leash dog" is
> > really an acceptable answer. I have had a batch of dogs and several
> > problems, but I never had one that had to always be tied, leashed, or
> > crated. Cindy
> >
> > On Sep 5, 2011, at 10:39 AM, Lora wrote:
> >
> >> My school gave me lots of methods that I tried to get this dog to
> >> listen of leash and finally the school was like well I guess this dog
> >> can't be an off leash dog.
> >>
> >> On 9/5/11, Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> I can't remember if you have spoken to the school about this. You
> > shouldn't
> >>> have lots of off leash problems with him at this point. If it was stress
> >>> though, wouldn't his guiding be affected, too? I don't really know. I
> >>> had
> > a
> >>> dog once that the vet said was stress drinking, but she was a good
> > working
> >>> dog. I hope someone can help you more than I can apparently help.
> >>>
> >>> CL
> >>>
> >>> On Sep 5, 2011, at 10:25 AM, Lora wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I've had him for about a year. I know I have a very busy lifestyle.
> >>>> His guide work is amazing and I like him as a dog. His off leash
> >>>> issues are about the only issue. I've had previous dogs that have had
> >>>> lots of problems.
> >>>>
> >>>> On 9/5/11, Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> I can't remember how long you have had this dog. Weren't you having
> >>>>> trouble
> >>>>> with him from the time you got him? I can't remember for sure. I can't
> >>>>> remember where he came from either, though in the end that wouldn't
> >>>>> matter.
> >>>>> Why do you think he has so much stress in his life?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cindy
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sep 5, 2011, at 10:08 AM, Lora wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Hello List:
> >>>>>> I know we've probably had this discussion before but I would
> >>>>>> appreciate it if we could have it again. My dog is loosing a lot of
> >>>>>> hair and I think it is due to stress since he is on a good diet. I
> >>>>>> can't trust him off leash since he doesn't listen at all. I have
> >>>>>> tried
> >>>>>> letting him play on a flexilead but he won't run around. I play with
> >>>>>> him tug of war and other games like that but I don't think he's
> >>>>>> getting enough stress out of his life. Do you have any suggestions?
> >>>>>> Thank You.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Lora
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>> nagdu:
> >>>>>>
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> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >
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> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Lora
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> nagdu mailing list
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> >>>
> >>>
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> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Lora
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >
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