[nagdu] Stress Issues

Wed Sep 7 13:29:54 UTC 2011

Lora,

This is an excellent start!   Here are some ideas to expand on the 
fun/stress reducing things you do together.

You mentioned he likes to go between your legs to get scratched, can you 
move around randomly to make it a more active game? Dance around, spin 
in different directions, laugh, let him really know you are having a 
good time.

You mentioned he likes water, in the summer I sometimes put ice cubes in 
the water dish.  the dogs love this.  Weird, but they sort of act like 
it's bobbing for apples or something.  It does get a bit messy, but not 
too bad and its just water.  I'm not sure of your living arrangements or 
facilities, but a wading pool or playing in water from a garden hose 
might be fun.  If he likes swimming in the river and you're okay with 
that, what about attaching him to a long line?  It's just a really long 
leash made of nylon or something that is light weight and won't get 
destroyed when it gets wet.

You mentioned he likes to play tug, can you combine tug with fetch to 
get him moving a bit more?  Or if you have the space letting him pull 
you around on a wheeled chair when playing tug is quite fun!   I don't 
have any good suggestions about plush toys.  Monty will tear them up in 
minutes.  If I do purchase them I just acknowledge that it will be an 
afternoon of entertainment and that is it.  I also directly supervise 
when I allow him to play with stuffed toys.  It keeps him safe and 
lengthens the life of the toy a bit.

Oh, I did just have an idea...what about a fleece rope tug toy?  Monty 
loves them!  It's like a regular rope tug toy except it's made of 
fleece.  They last quite a while, a couple of months here.  It's pretty 
durable, but still has the fabric feel in their mouth.

I think both of you will be much happier when you can really play and 
have fun together a lot more often.  I think maybe you are both stressed 
and each others stress is feeding the others.  It's a nasty cycle.   
Maybe I'm wrong and it's something totally different.  This is email 
after all and that does have it's limitations.

Have you thought anymore about a vet visit?  If the hair loss and/or 
behavior is due to some physical issue that could very well be something 
easy to manage.

Best of luck to you!
Julie

On 9/6/2011 2:02 PM, Lora wrote:
> My dog loves going inbetween my legs and getting his bum scratched he
> does a little happy dance however he thinks everyone should have that
> privilage and tries to knock people over when he greets. He loves tug
> of war he doesn't like baths but loves playing in water. He loves soft
> toys but destroys them within 2 days if that. I can't decide if he
> likes walks I think he may think that he has to work. Did I mention he
> loves water. If I could get the come command down i'd let him play all
> he wanted in the river since it's close to my house.
>
> On 9/6/11, Lora<blindhistory at gmail.com>  wrote:
>> I did indeed have two other dogs from a diferent school that had guide
>> work issues and one whoch was so stressed he had diarrea all the time.
>> My current guide is amazing in harness just not so much out of it. He
>> has too many good qualities. My view is that if you have more negative
>> to say about your dog than positive when you make a list it is time to
>> retire depending on the issues of course. This is not the case with my
>> current guide. I just don't want to have a stressed dog because I
>> believe that is one of the reasons my other dogs didnt make it. Thanks
>> everyone for your suggestions.
>>
>> On 9/6/11, Tami Kinney<tamara.8024 at comcast.net>  wrote:
>>> Ann, Steve and Cindy,
>>>
>>> In a dog's first year, with a first-time -- essentially in Lora's case
>>> -- guide dog handler, it's really a complex of factors, including the
>>> age and breed of dog, and all those intensive influences that went into
>>> the dog's raising prior to its return to the kennel life for guide dog
>>> training. So that does make it difficult to diagnose from a distance and
>>> offer helpful suggestions.
>>>
>>> Lora, I'm wondering if your school has sent out a trainer to observe the
>>> dog at home and to observe the two of you together, and your roommate at
>>> home... Well, a trainer visit is still a fairly artificial scenario for
>>> her/him to observe a real dog to try to diagnose and come up with
>>> solutions for real daily life at home. Hm..I'm just speculating and
>>> thinking aloud here, but some observation over time seems to me that it
>>> would be most useful to help the trainer work with you to diagnose and
>>> devise reasonable solutions to bring the dog up to a better level of
>>> home manners. Given the demands of your regular lifestyle on time and
>>> energy, though, I don't know if you would have that kind of time
>>> yourself. That's what frustrating when it comes to guide dogs. First, as
>>> others have mentioned, there's the influence of others during the newly
>>> minted guide dog's formative years. And there are the needs of a
>>> handler, as well. I've heard from or talked to several people in as many
>>> years who simply find themselves unable to deal with problem behaviors
>>> at home even though the dog has great guide work. When I listen to them
>>> telling about it, I can hear the sadness they feel by just talking that
>>> way about a dog they truly love and have a deep bond with. But other
>>> concerns in their lives make it just not doable for them to address
>>> destructive or dangerous puppy behaviors in a trained guide dog. And,
>>> honestly, while a two year old (ish) dog will still have a lot of puppy
>>> left to mature through, it should be reasonable to expect that it will
>>> have enough of a foundation of good home manners that it's not going to
>>> get into things that will injure it to the extent you can't let it be
>>> off leash in the house even when you're there... Which is what it sounds
>>> like you're facing. Or have I misunderstood?
>>>
>>> Trying to think back over everything I remember from your prior
>>> experiences, it seems that you faced some health problems that were
>>> quite serious in one or both of those dogs, as well as dangerous
>>> problems with their guide work. Is that right? But those two were fine
>>> at home... So, different school, different dog with good guide work but
>>> problematic house manners...
>>>
>>> I agree with Steve that any handler does need to consider her/his
>>> influence on one or more dogs once they're the team is home after
>>> graduation. However, I'm also with Ann in believing that problems with a
>>> young dog in the first year are likely to have come home with the dog.
>>> Some handlers are willing and able to work through it; others are not.
>>> Which is no criticism to them! If any given handler simply does not have
>>> the right factors in place -- including extra time and energy -- then
>>> how can they be expected to correct serious issues in a nearly mature
>>> dog?
>>>
>>> Well, blame isn't the issue, but figuring out where a behavior came from
>>> and analyzing yourself now that you are the primary influence on the dog
>>> is essential for diagnosis. If there's a change you can make in your
>>> interactions with the dog that will bring it up to your needs in the
>>> house, since you seem very happy with its work and the dog itself
>>> otherwise, then that's great because you simply need to make minor
>>> changes that you are in total control of. /smile/
>>>
>>> Certainly, your concerns about the dog's stress are valid since at this
>>> time, the dog is not able to be free to be a dog without possible injury
>>> or illness... Must be very frustrating. And now I'm trying to remember
>>> if I mentioned the value of a good bone to chew -- or some approximation
>>> thereof. You may already provide that for your dog, so I won't belabor
>>> the point. /smile/ We're out of bones for at least the next couple of
>>> days and I'm bummed because the dogs will make my evenings very busy and
>>> irritating because they believe it is up to me to entertain if I don't
>>> come up with a bone for them to mess with each other over. /lol/ So I
>>> have a bone obsession! Um... Oh, never mind.
>>>
>>> I was thinking that a low dose of one of the herbal anti-anxiety,
>>> calming remedies out there might be helpful in the evening, as well.
>>> Rescue Remedy remains one of my favorites for Daisy dog, although we
>>> rarely need it anymore. Unless we're traveling and she's just too
>>> excited to contain herself. /shudder/ But that's a whole 'nother
>>> ballgame, that there is. A low dose while you're relaxing with your dog
>>> at home, or when you're studying and need your dog to not be eating
>>> safety pins or chewing your roommate's shoes could be a start. Dunno.
>>> Just a thought.
>>>
>>>
>>> Also, since your busy young student life with all that entails
>>> In general, when people describe how they have to watch their dogs like
>>> a hawk at home or keep them strictly contained, it always confuses me
>>> for some reason... Then I remember all the crap I got over my poodle pup
>>> from people who would insist that all guide dogs are perfect at home all
>>> the time, , as well as in harness, never set a foot out of line, etc.,
>>> etc. Since my adolescent blank slate poodle puppy was not perfect, then
>>> I needed to just give up on her because she wasn't guide dog material
>>> because she was so rowdy around the house. Also, I needed to feed her
>>> the exact strict regimen suited to an adult lab. Or else! Well, the or
>>> else was often that the person I had not asked for help there wasn't
>>> going to help me anymore, so you see, what they said was true. I just
>>> stopped having people like that in my house, so they couldn't help me
>>> because I'm just uncooperative, right? Good grief!
>>>
>>> Apparently, I'm not as over that as I think I am because I am constantly
>>> shocked to learn that guide dogs are not absolutely perfect all the
>>> time, even when they're at home just being dogs outside of working
>>> hours. /lol/ Also, I'm always a bit nervous that some of you perfect
>>> guide dog users with your perfect dogs will find out about Mitzi's now
>>> occasional forays into Big Trouble... Then I catch myself, of course.
>>> And just deal with the behavior in the way we learned to while she was
>>> growing up and an adolescent terror! Same with Daisy, though with her
>>> it's still rehab, just not as difficult or as all consuming. But she's
>>> not a guide edog at all; when you take on a pup or an adult dog in need
>>> of rehab, you can't expect the kind of behavior you would in a grown,
>>> professional raised and trained guide dog..
>>>
>>> Anyway, not useful information there, just a little quirk of mine from
>>> back when. /smiel/
>>>
>>> Let us know how it goes, Lora, and what works for you and yours and even
>>> what doesn't. If I think of anything useful, I'll be sure to let you
>>> know.
>>>
>>> Tami
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, 2011-09-05 at 16:36 -0500, Steven Johnson wrote:
>>>> Ann,
>>>> There seems to be items pointed out that everything but the possibility
>>>> that
>>>> the handler could be part of the problem.  So, I think it is fair to say
>>>> that we agree to disagree.  I am not by any means saying that schools
>>>> are
>>>> perfect or are dogs, but at some level, the handler needs to assess
>>>> their
>>>> skills and abilities as a handler because at some point, some people are
>>>> just not cut out to be guide dog handlers.  You can't tell me that if a
>>>> person gets 3 dogs from 3 different schools, or 3 dogs from the same
>>>> school
>>>> and the same problems keep popping up, that there aren't some handler
>>>> concerns?  When looking at such situations in their totality, all things
>>>> need to be considered and differentially diagnosed as they are slowly
>>>> but
>>>> surely ruled out...including handler issues.
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully, Steve
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Ann Edie
>>>> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2011 2:41 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Stress Issues
>>>>
>>>> Hi, Steve, Lora, and Everybody,
>>>>
>>>> Steve, the implied answer to your rhetorical question about the root of
>>>> behavior problems in guide dogs is, "the handler."  However, I don't
>>>> think
>>>>
>>>> this is necessarily a fair answer.  It could as well be "the breeding
>>>> program" or "the puppy-raising program" or "genetics" or "the nature of
>>>> dogs" or many other answers which I haven't thought of off the top of my
>>>> head, that has caused the problems.
>>>>
>>>> I think it is unfair to blame the handler for all behavior issues in
>>>> guide
>>>>
>>>> dogs or in pet dogs for that matter.  Sometimes it truly is that a dog
>>>> is
>>>> not cut out to be a guide dog 24 hours per day, that the only way that
>>>> dog
>>>>
>>>> made it through training was because it was only worked for an hour per
>>>> day
>>>> and was then put back in the kennels where there was no opportunity to
>>>> counter surf, chew up everything in the bathroom wastepaper baskets, eat
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>> kids toys and everyone's clothes and shoes, steal a whole roast or a
>>>> stick
>>>>
>>>> of butter off the dining room table, and dash out the door any time he
>>>> isn't
>>>>
>>>> tied down.  The trainers/instructors never see these behaviors because
>>>> they
>>>> don't live with the dogs.  And if a dog comes to the blind handler with
>>>> these behaviors established in his history, even if the handler follows
>>>> to
>>>>
>>>> the letter the instructions of the program as to how to gradually allow
>>>> the
>>>> dog more freedom in the house and religiously performs obedience
>>>> exercises
>>>>
>>>> daily and gives the dog opportunities to play and release stress, etc.,
>>>> the
>>>> unwanted behaviors will most likely appear as soon as opportunity
>>>> presents
>>>>
>>>> itself and will be extremely difficult to change because they are so
>>>> reinforcing to the dog.
>>>>
>>>> In my own case, I had had several pet dogs which I had raised from
>>>> puppies
>>>>
>>>> before I got my first guide dog.  My pets were always very well-behaved
>>>> in
>>>>
>>>> the house as well as in public, and had many admirers who expressed
>>>> their
>>>> willingness to offer my dogs a home if a situation ever occured which
>>>> prevented me from keeping them.  I also competed in obedience with
>>>> several
>>>>
>>>> of my pet dogs, so I know something of formal obedience as well as just
>>>> good
>>>>
>>>> manners in dogs.
>>>>
>>>> My first guide was not only a fine working guide but also had the house
>>>> manners I expected.  He could be left off-leash in the house without
>>>> fear
>>>> that he would eat the kids' toys or food from the counters, or, after a
>>>> little training, even the food in the pet dog's bowl.  He waited for
>>>> permission to go through the door and had a reliable recall.  And I
>>>> didn't
>>>>
>>>> have to go through any herculean efforts to achieve this result.  That
>>>> dog
>>>>
>>>> performed his guide tasks admirably and lived as a beloved member of my
>>>> family for 9 years, until his death.  At the time, I didn't consider any
>>>> of
>>>> this extraordinary.  I thought it was just what was to be expected of a
>>>> highly trained and specially bred guide dog.
>>>>
>>>> My next 2 guide dogs were completely different.  They had horrible house
>>>> manners and terrible prey drive.  They showed lots of stress symptoms,
>>>> such
>>>> as losing hair, chewing on their legs and feet, having relieving
>>>> accidents
>>>>
>>>> indoors, having feeding problems, and losing weight.  Dealing with these
>>>> two
>>>>
>>>> dogs and trying to salvage the partnerships with each of them was
>>>> emotionally devastating as well as physically exhausting to me.  If I
>>>> hadn't
>>>>
>>>> had the background with my pet dogs and my first guide dog that I had, I
>>>> surely would have been convinced that I was simply a poor handler who
>>>> couldn't maintain the precious investment of time and effort that had
>>>> gone
>>>>
>>>> into producing these special dogs.  And the often stated opinion
>>>> expressed
>>>>
>>>> by long-time dog handlers on lists such as this one, that problems in
>>>> guide
>>>> dogs after placement were almost invariably due to lax discipline on the
>>>> part of the blind handler, certainly did not help or support me in my
>>>> time
>>>>
>>>> of struggle.
>>>>
>>>> In the end, I had to conclude that further efforts to keep working with
>>>> those dogs were not going to succeed, and that their return to the
>>>> school
>>>> was the only viable solution.  Neither of those dogs was reissued to
>>>> another
>>>>
>>>> blind handler, although both were certainly young enough to make this
>>>> the
>>>> logical course of action, if it had been a "mismatch" or poor choice of
>>>> handler which had caused the problems with these dogs.
>>>>
>>>> In other words, my considered opinion is that the guide dog training
>>>> programs are not perfect.  They do occasionally put out dogs which are
>>>> not
>>>>
>>>> temperamentally suited to be guides and dogs which cannot take the
>>>> stress
>>>> of
>>>>
>>>> full-time guide work, as opposed to being a dog in training.  From what
>>>> Lora
>>>>
>>>> has said, it sounds as if she has sought and followed the advice of her
>>>> training program on how to deal with the issues that have come up with
>>>> her
>>>>
>>>> dog.  It sounds as if she has made sincere efforts to retrain the dog
>>>> and
>>>> to
>>>>
>>>> manage the undesirable behaviors.  I would not want Lora to feel that
>>>> she
>>>> is
>>>>
>>>> somehow to blame for her dog's poor house manners or dangerous
>>>> behaviors,
>>>> either because she was not rigorous enough in her discipline or because
>>>> she
>>>> was too strict and controlling of her dog's every move.
>>>>
>>>> Certainly, the types and amounts of unwanted behavior that each of us is
>>>> willing or able to live with in our animal companions differs, and may
>>>> differ with our living arrangements and family circumstances as well as
>>>> other lifestyle variables.  But I don't think there is anything wrong
>>>> with
>>>>
>>>> having a bottom line when it comes to behavior, either in the home or in
>>>> public, either guide work behaviors or companion or social  behaviors.
>>>>
>>>> Lora wrote asking for ways that she might use to relieve stress in her
>>>> dog.
>>>> How about we just answer her question without adding to both her own
>>>> stress
>>>> and that of the dog?
>>>>
>>>> In that vain, Lora, have you found any safe fenced place, such as a
>>>> tennis
>>>>
>>>> court or fenced yard, where you can play supervised games with your dog
>>>> such
>>>>
>>>> as tug-o-war or fetching games, where there are not too many things that
>>>> he
>>>> can get in trouble with?  When he is indoors, can you keep him on leash
>>>> so
>>>>
>>>> that he goes with you wherever you move rather than putting him on a tie
>>>> where he has to stay in one place?  Have you tried giving him his food
>>>> in
>>>> one of the puzzle toys where he has to work to get the food out a piece
>>>> at
>>>> a
>>>>
>>>> time?  Have you used T-Touch or massage with him for relaxation?  Have
>>>> you
>>>>
>>>> played little training games with him (on leash) where you have someone
>>>> drop
>>>>
>>>> a piece of food (or paper) or something that is not too attractive to
>>>> him
>>>> and then reward him instantly with a higher value treat for not diving
>>>> for
>>>>
>>>> the dropped item immediately?  Does he have favorite chew toys available
>>>> to
>>>> him frequently?  Does he know explicitly which objects are his own to do
>>>> what he wants with and which objects are not his and are entirely off
>>>> limits?  Has he been checked out by a vet for medical reasons for his
>>>> stress
>>>>
>>>> level or for causes of some of his obsessive behaviors?
>>>>
>>>> I hope you will be able to find ways to help your dog relax while at the
>>>> same time helping him behave in acceptable ways so that you can all live
>>>> together comfortably.  And, if nothing works and you find that you
>>>> simply
>>>> cannot continue to live and work with this dog for your own peace of
>>>> mind
>>>> and for his safety, then don't think it is your fault in any way.  You
>>>> have
>>>> given it a good try, and that is all that we can do.  If the dog is not
>>>> cut
>>>> out for the job, then he will never be happy in that life.  Hopefully,
>>>> if
>>>> it
>>>>
>>>> comes to that decision, there is a wonderful dog out there just waiting
>>>> to
>>>>
>>>> be your guide and companion, and there is a wonderful family somewhere
>>>> who
>>>>
>>>> would be delighted to have your dog as a pampered pet.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Ann
>>>>
>>>>    ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Steven Johnson"<blinddog3 at charter.net>
>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2011 1:10 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Stress Issues
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> A good friend of mine pointed out to me after I made a comment how all
>>>>> of
>>>>>
>>>>> my
>>>>> dogs had similar habits.  They simply said, in a question, and what is
>>>>> the
>>>>> common denominator?  This made me think very closely to what I was
>>>>> doing
>>>>> right and those things I let slide.  I also know of others who have
>>>>> had
>>>>> a
>>>>> number of dogs in a short period of time, and I always simply ask this
>>>>> question.  So, what is the common denominator?
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of Cindy Ray
>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2011 10:44 AM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Stress Issues
>>>>>
>>>>> Wow! I don't think "I guess this dog just can't be an off leash dog"
>>>>> is
>>>>> really an acceptable answer. I have had a batch of dogs and several
>>>>> problems, but I never had one that had to always be tied, leashed, or
>>>>> crated. Cindy
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 5, 2011, at 10:39 AM, Lora wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> My school gave me lots of methods that I tried to get this dog to
>>>>>> listen of leash and finally the school was like well I guess this dog
>>>>>> can't be an off leash dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 9/5/11, Cindy Ray<cindyray at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>>>>> I can't remember if you have spoken to the school about this. You
>>>>> shouldn't
>>>>>>> have lots of off leash problems with him at this point. If it was
>>>>>>> stress
>>>>>>> though, wouldn't his guiding be affected, too? I don't really know.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> had
>>>>> a
>>>>>>> dog once that the vet said was stress drinking, but she was a good
>>>>> working
>>>>>>> dog. I hope someone can help you more than I can apparently help.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> CL
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sep 5, 2011, at 10:25 AM, Lora wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've had him for about a year. I know I have a very busy lifestyle.
>>>>>>>> His guide work is amazing and I like him as a dog. His off leash
>>>>>>>> issues are about the only issue. I've had previous dogs that have
>>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>>> lots of problems.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 9/5/11, Cindy Ray<cindyray at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I can't remember how long you have had this dog. Weren't you
>>>>>>>>> having
>>>>>>>>> trouble
>>>>>>>>> with him from the time you got him? I can't remember for sure. I
>>>>>>>>> can't
>>>>>>>>> remember where he came from either, though in the end that
>>>>>>>>> wouldn't
>>>>>>>>> matter.
>>>>>>>>> Why do you think he has so much stress in his life?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sep 5, 2011, at 10:08 AM, Lora wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hello List:
>>>>>>>>>> I know we've probably had this discussion before but I would
>>>>>>>>>> appreciate it if we could have it again. My dog is loosing a lot
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> hair and I think it is due to stress since he is on a good diet.
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> can't trust him off leash since he doesn't listen at all. I have
>>>>>>>>>> tried
>>>>>>>>>> letting him play on a flexilead but he won't run around. I play
>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>> him tug of war and other games like that but I don't think he's
>>>>>>>>>> getting enough stress out of his life. Do you have any
>>>>>>>>>> suggestions?
>>>>>>>>>> Thank You.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Lora
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Lora
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> for
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Lora
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
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>>
>> --
>> Lora
>>
>