[nagdu] Stress Issues

Natalie nrorrell at qwest.net
Sun Sep 11 21:50:50 UTC 2011


Well, glad to help in whatever way we can.  Please keep us posted.
Best,
Nat and Liam Joshua

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lora" <blindhistory at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Stress Issues


>I did indeed have two other dogs from a diferent school that had guide
> work issues and one whoch was so stressed he had diarrea all the time.
> My current guide is amazing in harness just not so much out of it. He
> has too many good qualities. My view is that if you have more negative
> to say about your dog than positive when you make a list it is time to
> retire depending on the issues of course. This is not the case with my
> current guide. I just don't want to have a stressed dog because I
> believe that is one of the reasons my other dogs didnt make it. Thanks
> everyone for your suggestions.
>
> On 9/6/11, Tami Kinney <tamara.8024 at comcast.net> wrote:
>> Ann, Steve and Cindy,
>>
>> In a dog's first year, with a first-time -- essentially in Lora's case
>> -- guide dog handler, it's really a complex of factors, including the
>> age and breed of dog, and all those intensive influences that went into
>> the dog's raising prior to its return to the kennel life for guide dog
>> training. So that does make it difficult to diagnose from a distance and
>> offer helpful suggestions.
>>
>> Lora, I'm wondering if your school has sent out a trainer to observe the
>> dog at home and to observe the two of you together, and your roommate at
>> home... Well, a trainer visit is still a fairly artificial scenario for
>> her/him to observe a real dog to try to diagnose and come up with
>> solutions for real daily life at home. Hm..I'm just speculating and
>> thinking aloud here, but some observation over time seems to me that it
>> would be most useful to help the trainer work with you to diagnose and
>> devise reasonable solutions to bring the dog up to a better level of
>> home manners. Given the demands of your regular lifestyle on time and
>> energy, though, I don't know if you would have that kind of time
>> yourself. That's what frustrating when it comes to guide dogs. First, as
>> others have mentioned, there's the influence of others during the newly
>> minted guide dog's formative years. And there are the needs of a
>> handler, as well. I've heard from or talked to several people in as many
>> years who simply find themselves unable to deal with problem behaviors
>> at home even though the dog has great guide work. When I listen to them
>> telling about it, I can hear the sadness they feel by just talking that
>> way about a dog they truly love and have a deep bond with. But other
>> concerns in their lives make it just not doable for them to address
>> destructive or dangerous puppy behaviors in a trained guide dog. And,
>> honestly, while a two year old (ish) dog will still have a lot of puppy
>> left to mature through, it should be reasonable to expect that it will
>> have enough of a foundation of good home manners that it's not going to
>> get into things that will injure it to the extent you can't let it be
>> off leash in the house even when you're there... Which is what it sounds
>> like you're facing. Or have I misunderstood?
>>
>> Trying to think back over everything I remember from your prior
>> experiences, it seems that you faced some health problems that were
>> quite serious in one or both of those dogs, as well as dangerous
>> problems with their guide work. Is that right? But those two were fine
>> at home... So, different school, different dog with good guide work but
>> problematic house manners...
>>
>> I agree with Steve that any handler does need to consider her/his
>> influence on one or more dogs once they're the team is home after
>> graduation. However, I'm also with Ann in believing that problems with a
>> young dog in the first year are likely to have come home with the dog.
>> Some handlers are willing and able to work through it; others are not.
>> Which is no criticism to them! If any given handler simply does not have
>> the right factors in place -- including extra time and energy -- then
>> how can they be expected to correct serious issues in a nearly mature
>> dog?
>>
>> Well, blame isn't the issue, but figuring out where a behavior came from
>> and analyzing yourself now that you are the primary influence on the dog
>> is essential for diagnosis. If there's a change you can make in your
>> interactions with the dog that will bring it up to your needs in the
>> house, since you seem very happy with its work and the dog itself
>> otherwise, then that's great because you simply need to make minor
>> changes that you are in total control of. /smile/
>>
>> Certainly, your concerns about the dog's stress are valid since at this
>> time, the dog is not able to be free to be a dog without possible injury
>> or illness... Must be very frustrating. And now I'm trying to remember
>> if I mentioned the value of a good bone to chew -- or some approximation
>> thereof. You may already provide that for your dog, so I won't belabor
>> the point. /smile/ We're out of bones for at least the next couple of
>> days and I'm bummed because the dogs will make my evenings very busy and
>> irritating because they believe it is up to me to entertain if I don't
>> come up with a bone for them to mess with each other over. /lol/ So I
>> have a bone obsession! Um... Oh, never mind.
>>
>> I was thinking that a low dose of one of the herbal anti-anxiety,
>> calming remedies out there might be helpful in the evening, as well.
>> Rescue Remedy remains one of my favorites for Daisy dog, although we
>> rarely need it anymore. Unless we're traveling and she's just too
>> excited to contain herself. /shudder/ But that's a whole 'nother
>> ballgame, that there is. A low dose while you're relaxing with your dog
>> at home, or when you're studying and need your dog to not be eating
>> safety pins or chewing your roommate's shoes could be a start. Dunno.
>> Just a thought.
>>
>>
>> Also, since your busy young student life with all that entails
>> In general, when people describe how they have to watch their dogs like
>> a hawk at home or keep them strictly contained, it always confuses me
>> for some reason... Then I remember all the crap I got over my poodle pup
>> from people who would insist that all guide dogs are perfect at home all
>> the time, , as well as in harness, never set a foot out of line, etc.,
>> etc. Since my adolescent blank slate poodle puppy was not perfect, then
>> I needed to just give up on her because she wasn't guide dog material
>> because she was so rowdy around the house. Also, I needed to feed her
>> the exact strict regimen suited to an adult lab. Or else! Well, the or
>> else was often that the person I had not asked for help there wasn't
>> going to help me anymore, so you see, what they said was true. I just
>> stopped having people like that in my house, so they couldn't help me
>> because I'm just uncooperative, right? Good grief!
>>
>> Apparently, I'm not as over that as I think I am because I am constantly
>> shocked to learn that guide dogs are not absolutely perfect all the
>> time, even when they're at home just being dogs outside of working
>> hours. /lol/ Also, I'm always a bit nervous that some of you perfect
>> guide dog users with your perfect dogs will find out about Mitzi's now
>> occasional forays into Big Trouble... Then I catch myself, of course.
>> And just deal with the behavior in the way we learned to while she was
>> growing up and an adolescent terror! Same with Daisy, though with her
>> it's still rehab, just not as difficult or as all consuming. But she's
>> not a guide edog at all; when you take on a pup or an adult dog in need
>> of rehab, you can't expect the kind of behavior you would in a grown,
>> professional raised and trained guide dog..
>>
>> Anyway, not useful information there, just a little quirk of mine from
>> back when. /smiel/
>>
>> Let us know how it goes, Lora, and what works for you and yours and even
>> what doesn't. If I think of anything useful, I'll be sure to let you
>> know.
>>
>> Tami
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 2011-09-05 at 16:36 -0500, Steven Johnson wrote:
>>> Ann,
>>> There seems to be items pointed out that everything but the possibility
>>> that
>>> the handler could be part of the problem.  So, I think it is fair to say
>>> that we agree to disagree.  I am not by any means saying that schools 
>>> are
>>> perfect or are dogs, but at some level, the handler needs to assess 
>>> their
>>> skills and abilities as a handler because at some point, some people are
>>> just not cut out to be guide dog handlers.  You can't tell me that if a
>>> person gets 3 dogs from 3 different schools, or 3 dogs from the same
>>> school
>>> and the same problems keep popping up, that there aren't some handler
>>> concerns?  When looking at such situations in their totality, all things
>>> need to be considered and differentially diagnosed as they are slowly 
>>> but
>>> surely ruled out...including handler issues.
>>>
>>> Respectfully, Steve
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Ann Edie
>>> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2011 2:41 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Stress Issues
>>>
>>> Hi, Steve, Lora, and Everybody,
>>>
>>> Steve, the implied answer to your rhetorical question about the root of
>>> behavior problems in guide dogs is, "the handler."  However, I don't 
>>> think
>>>
>>> this is necessarily a fair answer.  It could as well be "the breeding
>>> program" or "the puppy-raising program" or "genetics" or "the nature of
>>> dogs" or many other answers which I haven't thought of off the top of my
>>> head, that has caused the problems.
>>>
>>> I think it is unfair to blame the handler for all behavior issues in 
>>> guide
>>>
>>> dogs or in pet dogs for that matter.  Sometimes it truly is that a dog 
>>> is
>>> not cut out to be a guide dog 24 hours per day, that the only way that 
>>> dog
>>>
>>> made it through training was because it was only worked for an hour per
>>> day
>>> and was then put back in the kennels where there was no opportunity to
>>> counter surf, chew up everything in the bathroom wastepaper baskets, eat
>>> the
>>>
>>> kids toys and everyone's clothes and shoes, steal a whole roast or a 
>>> stick
>>>
>>> of butter off the dining room table, and dash out the door any time he
>>> isn't
>>>
>>> tied down.  The trainers/instructors never see these behaviors because
>>> they
>>> don't live with the dogs.  And if a dog comes to the blind handler with
>>> these behaviors established in his history, even if the handler follows 
>>> to
>>>
>>> the letter the instructions of the program as to how to gradually allow
>>> the
>>> dog more freedom in the house and religiously performs obedience 
>>> exercises
>>>
>>> daily and gives the dog opportunities to play and release stress, etc.,
>>> the
>>> unwanted behaviors will most likely appear as soon as opportunity 
>>> presents
>>>
>>> itself and will be extremely difficult to change because they are so
>>> reinforcing to the dog.
>>>
>>> In my own case, I had had several pet dogs which I had raised from 
>>> puppies
>>>
>>> before I got my first guide dog.  My pets were always very well-behaved 
>>> in
>>>
>>> the house as well as in public, and had many admirers who expressed 
>>> their
>>> willingness to offer my dogs a home if a situation ever occured which
>>> prevented me from keeping them.  I also competed in obedience with 
>>> several
>>>
>>> of my pet dogs, so I know something of formal obedience as well as just
>>> good
>>>
>>> manners in dogs.
>>>
>>> My first guide was not only a fine working guide but also had the house
>>> manners I expected.  He could be left off-leash in the house without 
>>> fear
>>> that he would eat the kids' toys or food from the counters, or, after a
>>> little training, even the food in the pet dog's bowl.  He waited for
>>> permission to go through the door and had a reliable recall.  And I 
>>> didn't
>>>
>>> have to go through any herculean efforts to achieve this result.  That 
>>> dog
>>>
>>> performed his guide tasks admirably and lived as a beloved member of my
>>> family for 9 years, until his death.  At the time, I didn't consider any
>>> of
>>> this extraordinary.  I thought it was just what was to be expected of a
>>> highly trained and specially bred guide dog.
>>>
>>> My next 2 guide dogs were completely different.  They had horrible house
>>> manners and terrible prey drive.  They showed lots of stress symptoms,
>>> such
>>> as losing hair, chewing on their legs and feet, having relieving 
>>> accidents
>>>
>>> indoors, having feeding problems, and losing weight.  Dealing with these
>>> two
>>>
>>> dogs and trying to salvage the partnerships with each of them was
>>> emotionally devastating as well as physically exhausting to me.  If I
>>> hadn't
>>>
>>> had the background with my pet dogs and my first guide dog that I had, I
>>> surely would have been convinced that I was simply a poor handler who
>>> couldn't maintain the precious investment of time and effort that had 
>>> gone
>>>
>>> into producing these special dogs.  And the often stated opinion 
>>> expressed
>>>
>>> by long-time dog handlers on lists such as this one, that problems in
>>> guide
>>> dogs after placement were almost invariably due to lax discipline on the
>>> part of the blind handler, certainly did not help or support me in my 
>>> time
>>>
>>> of struggle.
>>>
>>> In the end, I had to conclude that further efforts to keep working with
>>> those dogs were not going to succeed, and that their return to the 
>>> school
>>> was the only viable solution.  Neither of those dogs was reissued to
>>> another
>>>
>>> blind handler, although both were certainly young enough to make this 
>>> the
>>> logical course of action, if it had been a "mismatch" or poor choice of
>>> handler which had caused the problems with these dogs.
>>>
>>> In other words, my considered opinion is that the guide dog training
>>> programs are not perfect.  They do occasionally put out dogs which are 
>>> not
>>>
>>> temperamentally suited to be guides and dogs which cannot take the 
>>> stress
>>> of
>>>
>>> full-time guide work, as opposed to being a dog in training.  From what
>>> Lora
>>>
>>> has said, it sounds as if she has sought and followed the advice of her
>>> training program on how to deal with the issues that have come up with 
>>> her
>>>
>>> dog.  It sounds as if she has made sincere efforts to retrain the dog 
>>> and
>>> to
>>>
>>> manage the undesirable behaviors.  I would not want Lora to feel that 
>>> she
>>> is
>>>
>>> somehow to blame for her dog's poor house manners or dangerous 
>>> behaviors,
>>> either because she was not rigorous enough in her discipline or because
>>> she
>>> was too strict and controlling of her dog's every move.
>>>
>>> Certainly, the types and amounts of unwanted behavior that each of us is
>>> willing or able to live with in our animal companions differs, and may
>>> differ with our living arrangements and family circumstances as well as
>>> other lifestyle variables.  But I don't think there is anything wrong 
>>> with
>>>
>>> having a bottom line when it comes to behavior, either in the home or in
>>> public, either guide work behaviors or companion or social  behaviors.
>>>
>>> Lora wrote asking for ways that she might use to relieve stress in her
>>> dog.
>>> How about we just answer her question without adding to both her own
>>> stress
>>> and that of the dog?
>>>
>>> In that vain, Lora, have you found any safe fenced place, such as a 
>>> tennis
>>>
>>> court or fenced yard, where you can play supervised games with your dog
>>> such
>>>
>>> as tug-o-war or fetching games, where there are not too many things that
>>> he
>>> can get in trouble with?  When he is indoors, can you keep him on leash 
>>> so
>>>
>>> that he goes with you wherever you move rather than putting him on a tie
>>> where he has to stay in one place?  Have you tried giving him his food 
>>> in
>>> one of the puzzle toys where he has to work to get the food out a piece 
>>> at
>>> a
>>>
>>> time?  Have you used T-Touch or massage with him for relaxation?  Have 
>>> you
>>>
>>> played little training games with him (on leash) where you have someone
>>> drop
>>>
>>> a piece of food (or paper) or something that is not too attractive to 
>>> him
>>> and then reward him instantly with a higher value treat for not diving 
>>> for
>>>
>>> the dropped item immediately?  Does he have favorite chew toys available
>>> to
>>> him frequently?  Does he know explicitly which objects are his own to do
>>> what he wants with and which objects are not his and are entirely off
>>> limits?  Has he been checked out by a vet for medical reasons for his
>>> stress
>>>
>>> level or for causes of some of his obsessive behaviors?
>>>
>>> I hope you will be able to find ways to help your dog relax while at the
>>> same time helping him behave in acceptable ways so that you can all live
>>> together comfortably.  And, if nothing works and you find that you 
>>> simply
>>> cannot continue to live and work with this dog for your own peace of 
>>> mind
>>> and for his safety, then don't think it is your fault in any way.  You
>>> have
>>> given it a good try, and that is all that we can do.  If the dog is not
>>> cut
>>> out for the job, then he will never be happy in that life.  Hopefully, 
>>> if
>>> it
>>>
>>> comes to that decision, there is a wonderful dog out there just waiting 
>>> to
>>>
>>> be your guide and companion, and there is a wonderful family somewhere 
>>> who
>>>
>>> would be delighted to have your dog as a pampered pet.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Ann
>>>
>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Steven Johnson" <blinddog3 at charter.net>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2011 1:10 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Stress Issues
>>>
>>>
>>> >A good friend of mine pointed out to me after I made a comment how all 
>>> >of
>>> >
>>> >my
>>> > dogs had similar habits.  They simply said, in a question, and what is
>>> > the
>>> > common denominator?  This made me think very closely to what I was 
>>> > doing
>>> > right and those things I let slide.  I also know of others who have 
>>> > had
>>> > a
>>> > number of dogs in a short period of time, and I always simply ask this
>>> > question.  So, what is the common denominator?
>>> >
>>> > Steve
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> > Behalf
>>> > Of Cindy Ray
>>> > Sent: Monday, September 05, 2011 10:44 AM
>>> > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Stress Issues
>>> >
>>> > Wow! I don't think "I guess this dog just can't be an off leash dog" 
>>> > is
>>> > really an acceptable answer. I have had a batch of dogs and several
>>> > problems, but I never had one that had to always be tied, leashed, or
>>> > crated. Cindy
>>> >
>>> > On Sep 5, 2011, at 10:39 AM, Lora wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> My school gave me lots of methods that I tried to get this dog to
>>> >> listen of leash and finally the school was like well I guess this dog
>>> >> can't be an off leash dog.
>>> >>
>>> >> On 9/5/11, Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>> I can't remember if you have spoken to the school about this. You
>>> > shouldn't
>>> >>> have lots of off leash problems with him at this point. If it was
>>> >>> stress
>>> >>> though, wouldn't his guiding be affected, too? I don't really know. 
>>> >>> I
>>> >>> had
>>> > a
>>> >>> dog once that the vet said was stress drinking, but she was a good
>>> > working
>>> >>> dog. I hope someone can help you more than I can apparently help.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> CL
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Sep 5, 2011, at 10:25 AM, Lora wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> I've had him for about a year. I know I have a very busy lifestyle.
>>> >>>> His guide work is amazing and I like him as a dog. His off leash
>>> >>>> issues are about the only issue. I've had previous dogs that have 
>>> >>>> had
>>> >>>> lots of problems.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On 9/5/11, Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>>> I can't remember how long you have had this dog. Weren't you 
>>> >>>>> having
>>> >>>>> trouble
>>> >>>>> with him from the time you got him? I can't remember for sure. I
>>> >>>>> can't
>>> >>>>> remember where he came from either, though in the end that 
>>> >>>>> wouldn't
>>> >>>>> matter.
>>> >>>>> Why do you think he has so much stress in his life?
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Cindy
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> On Sep 5, 2011, at 10:08 AM, Lora wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Hello List:
>>> >>>>>> I know we've probably had this discussion before but I would
>>> >>>>>> appreciate it if we could have it again. My dog is loosing a lot 
>>> >>>>>> of
>>> >>>>>> hair and I think it is due to stress since he is on a good diet. 
>>> >>>>>> I
>>> >>>>>> can't trust him off leash since he doesn't listen at all. I have
>>> >>>>>> tried
>>> >>>>>> letting him play on a flexilead but he won't run around. I play
>>> >>>>>> with
>>> >>>>>> him tug of war and other games like that but I don't think he's
>>> >>>>>> getting enough stress out of his life. Do you have any 
>>> >>>>>> suggestions?
>>> >>>>>> Thank You.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> --
>>> >>>>>> Lora
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> >>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>> >>>>>> for
>>> >>>>>> nagdu:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.com
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> >>>>> nagdu:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blindhistory%40gmail.com
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> --
>>> >>>> Lora
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> >>>
>>> >>>
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>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Lora
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
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>>
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>
>
> -- 
> Lora
>
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