[nagdu] an update on my friend

Jennifer Perdue jlperdue3 at gmail.com
Sun Apr 15 21:03:59 UTC 2012 

Thank you for being so understanding of my question.

Jenny
On Apr 15, 2012, at 1:32 PM, Lyn Gwizdak wrote:

> Hi Jennifer,
> Naw, no worries about any "school wars."
> 
> I have been around guide dogs and their handlers since 1970 and then getting my own in 1973.  I have seen lots of dogs from many different schools. I lived in New England - Boston and Vermont - and the schools most handlers went to were Guiding Eyes for the Blind, The Seeing Eye, and a few from Guide Dog Foundation.
> 
> I got my first two dogs from GDF.  That first dog had to be retired early after only two years of service.  Her problems stemmed from the fact she was donated to the school as a two year old who lived in a back yard.  I had to finally retire her due to her poor bathroom habits that couldn't be resolved.  The next dog was great in all ways.
> 
> After several years of having no dog - I worked in food service and there was no place for a dog.  After I got a new job, I wanted a dog again and, after two years on that job, I got a new dog - from TSE.  I had all kinds of problems with this dog - behavior and health - and had to retire her after two and a half years - after a move to California.  TSE did tell me that this dog shouold never have gone out.  After this, I went to GDA and to Eye Dog Foundation which no longer exists.  Then in 1997, I returned to TSE.  On that class, I was issued a dog that had to be taken out of the program after I had her only four days due to dog aggression problems.  TSE thought the aggression problem was resolved but it wasn't. The next dog I was switched to lasted two years and retired because I moved from a rural area to an urban one.  the dog couldn't handle that change.  After that, I got great dogs - including the one I have now.  In spite of these problems, I was ALWAYS treated with respect by all staff at TSE.  We dealt with each other as adult professionals and I never felt dissed by them no matter what problem I had with any of their dogs.
> 
> You're wondering how could Lyn continue to get dogs after all that?  Over the years, I have learned that all schools are filled with living beings - humans and dogs.  there are no guarantees in the outcomes.  There are things that happen to the dogs because they can't really tell us that they don't want to work, are ill, etc.  We have to guess at things by watching the outward behaviors of the dogs.
> 
> There are so many things that could result in less than satisfactory outcomes to our pairing up with dogs.  Some are health related that go undetected before the dog goes out with a graduate.  There are things that look like a thing that time will cure - but later pans out as a real problem that should have caused the dog to be dropped from the problem.  There can be a mismatch and the chemestry just isn't there between the dog and handler.  Lots of things.
> 
> I think most schools want the teams to work out and will do what they can for the most part.  Things happen and people are unhappy on the part of the people at the school or the part of the handler.  I do think that some schools are really better in training than others.  I have experienced this first hand.  Eye Dog was but a shadow of the quality training one gets at TSE.  Over the years, I have seen first hand some of the intrinsic problems or lack of training from certain schools.
> 
> It had been my experience that most of the schools will do what they can to rescue a team and it is a shame when that doesn''t happen.
> 
> I think if the dogs turn out to have illnesses, I think the school's breeding program needs to know becauise, sometimes, this is the only way they can find genetic problems that don't show up until later after going home with the graduate.
> 
> I can just say that just realize that dogs and people aren't perfect and that stuff happens no matter what school it is.  I think we can talk about our own experiences with schools - good or bad - without it being bashing. We are just expressing our own opinions.
> 
> Another thing, up until fairly recently, there really hasn't been much in regulations in the training practices at the various schools in the US. California has a regulatory board that all CAlifornia guide dog schools must adhere to.  this board qualifies the trainers.  This isn't the case in the rest of the US.  This is being addressed by the organization of guide dog schools here in the US and another one for the schools worldwide.  Also, NAGDU, under the leadership of Marion Gwizdala, is coming out with a Guide Dog Bill of Rights to help handlers to know their rights and to stop any abuse that some individuals at some guide dog schools have done in the past and even presently.
> 
> Remember, no guide dog school will exist if it can't get the blind people to go to them.  I would say to people who are new to guide dog use, read up on the schools, ASK QUESTIONS, talk to graduates or former graduates of said schools, ASK QUESTIONS, and go with your gut feelings - and ASK MORE QUESTIONS.  The schools don't own us and we are consumers who have the right to respect and dignity in all of our dealings with guide dog schools.  And then go with your gut feelings and knowledge and go to the school that best meets your needs.
> 
> Lyn and Landon
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jennifer Perdue" <jlperdue3 at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 6:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] an update on my friend
> 
> 
>> Hi Lyn,
>> 
>> I don't want to start a school war or to say anything negative about schools unduly.  But the other list I was on was wrought with dogs having health issues and psychological issues way too young.  That is the only reason I haven't applied there.
>> 
>> Oh I can't say that.  Southeastern found out really quickly when I applied there before they called me about Brooks, so it makes me nervous to apply there again.  Especially since I've seen so many problems with dogs from there from other lists.
>> 
>> I mean no disrespect.  I'm just stating what I've seen.
>> 
>> Jenny
>> On Apr 13, 2012, at 1:16 PM, Lyn Gwizdak wrote:
>> 
>>> Jennifer,
>>> I will tell you from personal experience that TSE will judge you as they see you.  They do not just see or hear what another school has said and automatically say NO.  They will give all qualified people a chance to prove themselves.  Just be real clear in what you want in a dog so they can make the best match for you.  They realize that problems people have with some previous schools can occur for any reason - bad chemestry between individuals, bad chemestry between handler and dog.  People change schools for all manner of reasons and is not unusual at all.  TSE is very fair.
>>> 
>>> Wherever you go, I hope you have a better time with them.  I personally have my reasons for atending TSE and I strongly support my school, but I also respect people's decisions to attend the school they feel is best for them.
>>> 
>>> Glad you are going to try again.  Like I said, don't let the jerks get you down.
>>> 
>>> Lyn and Landon
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jennifer Perdue" <jlperdue3 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2012 1:40 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] an update on my friend
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Thank you Lyn for those kind and wise words.  I am going to go forward with the application process at the school I've chosen.  I thought about TSE, but when I applied there before Southeastern quickly found out about it and that's when they manipulated me into going back there.
>>>> 
>>>> I am afraid, frankly, of Southeastern putting a good old ugly spin on what happened and the Seeing Eye just saying Nope, not going to deal with that, cause I know they talk to each other.
>>>> 
>>>> Anyway, I've got some thing I want to take care of before i go back to school so I'm not in too much of a hurry.
>>>> 
>>>> It'll happen when it's meant to.
>>>> 
>>>> Jenny
>>>> On Apr 12, 2012, at 2:24 PM, Lyn Gwizdak wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Jennifer,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Welcome to the list.  I am Lyn with one n, and I am on my eighth guide dog. He is Landon, a six year old Lab/Golden cross from The Seeing Eye. I am 61 years old and live in San Diego.  I do pet assisted therapy with my dog and am active in my Democratic Party club.  I enjoy hanging out with friends, walking, reading, and many fun stuff.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don't know you, do not belong to the list where people abused you, or know any more than what Laurel posted on this list.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I can see how much hurt you have gotten because of your misfortune and I am so sorry about that.  I want you to know that what happened to you regarding your dogs, does and can happen to any of us.  When you deal with living beings there's no guarantees as to what will happen with said living beings. Don't beat yourself up over it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In the 1990s, I had some problems with dogs and other things that caused some schools to reject me and this didn't stop me from getting great guides. I went to Seeing Eye and they judge people on what they see for themselves. They come to interview each prospective student in person.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I've been around guide dog users and guide dog schools since the early 1970s and they all vary.  I am sure you will find a school that meets your needs that will provide you a good dog.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Right now, take the time to take care of yourself and don't let the nasty folks get you down.  They are the ones with the problem - not you.  This behavior is part of "marginalized" behavior and I see it in many minority groups.  They feel that they can't attack the real enemy that oppresses them so they wind up attacking someone else that is "safe" - another one of their own.  In this case, a fellow blind guide dog user.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I have been on this list for several years and I've not seen any real mean-spiritedness.  People will get hot at times in controversial topics and people have strong feelings but not meanness.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Enjoy the list and post as you feel like doing.  We are very diverse and wwe learn alot from each other.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jennifer Perdue" <jlperdue3 at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2012 10:23 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] an update on my friend
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I am the person Loral is talking about.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> You won't hear much from me on this list because I just retired my dog and with everything that has happened on the other list I'm just not going to open my mouth or heart about anything.  My heart is too broken and hurt to take that kind of stuff anymore.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> My husband has one of the messages I was sent, but I deleted the second. I was not aware of the foul names or threats that were made against me until Loral let me know about the messages she was sent.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I just wanted you to know that I did subscribe to this list, but you won't see me post.  I'm frankly too hurt, fragile, and afraid to get retaliation from anyone else.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> thank you for your support and I'm interested to see what all of you have to write about your wonderful guides.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Jenny
>>>>>> On Apr 12, 2012, at 7:24 AM, Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Tell her to save those nasty messages. Odds are these people are just being mean, but their words could be considered threatening and she may need proof of these messages.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Laurel
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 5:25 PM
>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] an update on my friend
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Chantel, I know you have, but what you haven't seen is the private off
>>>>>>> list posts that people from there have sent her. And usually, the GDUI
>>>>>>> list is great, so please don't judge everybody on the list because of
>>>>>>> the actions of a few, but it's almost like the Southeastern guides and
>>>>>>> many people from that list are trying to drive her out of the guide
>>>>>>> dog community. In private posts that she has read to me and that she's
>>>>>>> fowarded to me, people have called her names like "female dog," you
>>>>>>> know what I mean, and all other names using cuss words. They have said
>>>>>>> that she doesn't ever deserve another dog, that they will report her
>>>>>>> to Southeastern, make sure her dog gets taken away from her, make sure
>>>>>>> she never gets a dog from another school again etc. It's just cruel.
>>>>>>> They said she was flaming Southeastern and etc. It goes on and on. I
>>>>>>> understand wanting to protect your school, but attaking somebody
>>>>>>> personally?
>>>>>>> Let's just let this be a reminder to us. We need to put ourselves in
>>>>>>> other people's shoes and think how we would want to be treated, and
>>>>>>> then treat people that way. We need to always remember, that even if
>>>>>>> we disagree with the person's actions, or things that they are saying,
>>>>>>> to treat them with love and respect. We need to realize that when
>>>>>>> people get angry, and make comments that they can't sthand a school,
>>>>>>> like she said about Southeastern, that they are hurting and angry and
>>>>>>> that us reacting out of hurt and anger can only serve to further cause
>>>>>>> more hurt.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Please everybody, remember this situation, pray for my friend, and
>>>>>>> treat others as you'd wanna be treated. If you are a Christian like
>>>>>>> me, then WWJD.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Laurel and Stockard who really appreciates the support here
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 4/11/12, Chantel Cuddemi <jawsgirl87 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I am on the GDUI list and I've seen the posts! That's just plain sad and
>>>>>>>> wrong!
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>>>>>>> Of Laurel
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 4:52 PM
>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] an update on my friend
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I have an update on my friend.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> She's still trying to figure out where to place her guide. I was
>>>>>>>> disturbed to get a message on the phone saying that she's unsubscribed
>>>>>>>> from the GDUI list, that some of you might be on, and that she doesn't
>>>>>>>> wanna join this one anymore. In fact, she's given up on getting a
>>>>>>>> guide all together. Some people, namely from another list, not at all
>>>>>>>> from here, have said some very cruel and hurtful things to her either
>>>>>>>> list wide or privately and just put sault in her wounds. Other
>>>>>>>> southeastern grads have ganged up against her too. She's really
>>>>>>>> hurting and is really broken hearted, and I hurt for her. I'm sad that
>>>>>>>> because of other people's hurtful spiteful comments it's causing her
>>>>>>>> to just retreat and give up. I wanna repeat, nothing bad has been said
>>>>>>>> to her from anybody on this particular list, it's all another list
>>>>>>>> that we're part of. She called GDB and canceled her application. I'm
>>>>>>>> just so sad right now, I feel like there's noting I can do to help her
>>>>>>>> and I wish I could ease the pain somehow. I wish people would put
>>>>>>>> themselves in her shoes and think before they make personal attacks
>>>>>>>> and hurtful comments to or about her. I'm just sad, and I had to share
>>>>>>>> with somebody. Please pray for my friend.
>>>>>>>> Laurel and Stockard
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>>>> 
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