[nagdu] How would you respond?

Tue Apr 24 16:56:21 UTC 2012

Wow! what happened to due process! I can't believe  all of these judgments
and assumptions are being made on the word of someone who is providing
second hand information. We were not there and we don't really know what
happened. It's funny how we tend to take  a hard line with sighted folks
when they try and interfere with us and our guides, but we are willing to
accept that kind of treatment from a fellow handler thinking they are only
trying to help, but in all actuality they are interfering in things that are
none of their business. 
We have a lot of people on this list from many different backgrounds as well
as different experience levels with working with guide and service  dogs and
can benefit and learn from each other's experiences as well as provide
support to those who are having difficulties with their dogs and want to ask
questions to assist in furthering their knowledge in guide and or service
work with their dogs. Not to mention their people who have sick dogs who are
looking for support. However, given the tone on this list are afraid to say
anything for fear of being judged and or being told what to do. 
I don't believe that this list was created to have a bunch of handler's send
multiple posts judging and making assumptions about other handler's who are
not here to defend themselves or to be told what to do. I find this behavior
to be intolerable and disrespectful. As the vice president of The California
Association of Guide Dog Users)CAGDU) I can honestly state that our board
has never rushed to judgment or made  assumptions on hear say. We do our
research and get the facts before we take any action on anyone's behalf. 
Tina                        

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Larry D. Keeler
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 7:26 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] How would you respond?

Yes, because the thing is that you are supposed to be able to control your
dog!  You are supposed to do this under all circumstances.  Those whom have
pet dogs that do this can be sued and have to pay fines or in some
circumstances go to jail!  There is no excuse for letting your dog attack
another dog!  If its the dog fault, the handler should know his-her dog well
enough to keep it out of those situations!  If the dog was offleash, he gets
what he gets!  If not black listed then certainly observed very carefuly
when next going through a training program!  I know folks who have had guide
dogs that value a little aggression.  I don't believe in any aggressive dog
who's handler can't control it.  I'm suggesting that sence the dog and
handler are both members of a team, they should know each other and how they
will react!  A new team might get some leanency because they might not know
each other well but otherwise.  This society puts down dogs who become
aggressive to humans.  The assumption I am making is that both parties
should have had control of there dogs and the one who was the attacker
should have been controlled!  Nothing hard or complicated about that!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Meghan Whalen" <mewhalen at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] How would you respond?

> Wow...this message sure is full of assumptions.  The person should be 
> black listed because he or she received a dog which attacked another dog.
> I do not think dogs are taught aggression.  I think dogs will be dogs, 
> and it is very unfortunate that this happened, but in no way, 
> what-so-ever does that mean this handler should never have a guide 
> again.  My first guide bit one of my pet dogs.  I should probably have 
> never been given another dog, then, I suppose.  I must have taught her 
> to bite.  Shame on me.
>
> I am sorry this message comes off as rude, but I am really really 
> tired of people assuming it is the person's fault.  We talk about 
> wanting to be treated fairly and equally by guide dog training 
> programs.  We say that we are adults and should be treated as such, 
> and then, more than one person I have come across automatically blames 
> the handler.  If I buy a new microwave, and I bring it home and plug 
> it in and it doesn't work, did I do something wrong?  No, there was a 
> problem with the manufacturing of the product.  If I bring a dog home, 
> and that dog does not guide effectively, or she barks and/or growls at
other dogs, that is not my fault, either.
> That does not mean I should not work with the dog to improve the 
> problems if it seems they could be fixed, but the handler is not 
> always responsible for what the dog does or does not know.  Please 
> recall that before a dog is matched with a blind person, the dog has 
> had a year and a half to two years growing and learning and having 
> experiences we will never know about.  I am very disappointed in 
> people who would not wish to be treated in exactly the way they are
treating people who cannot defend themselves.
>
> Meghan
> On 4/24/2012 4:45 AM, Larry D. Keeler wrote:
>> Oh, thats bad!  Guides are deffinetely not supposed to do that!  I 
>> think both schools should be contacted and the case should be taken to
court.
>> I get the feeling that someone really relaxed there control of there dog!

>> The attacker should be subject to the fullness of the law!  And maybe 
>> even black listed with all of the schools!
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Johnson" 
>> <blinddog3 at charter.net>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 12:17 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How would you respond?
>>
>>
>>> Julie,
>>> Both dogs were guides.  What I do not know if they were both in 
>>> harness, but both students were attending the blind skills training 
>>> program and had their guides there as well.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>> Behalf Of Julie J.
>>> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 9:37 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] How would you respond?
>>>
>>> I'd find out who the owner of the dog was.  If there are state laws 
>>> addressing this issue, I'd have a visit with the police and file the 
>>> appropriate paperwork.
>>>
>>> I have no idea what I'd do about my own dog though.  Probably take 
>>> it very easy for a while.  then very gently introduce calm, gentle 
>>> dogs to see how it went.
>>>
>>> Or was the other dog also a guide?  I wasn't exactly sure from your 
>>> description of things.  I don't know that that would substantially 
>>> change my approach, except that I might also let the program know 
>>> that I was filing a report with the police.
>>>
>>> Julie
>>> On 4/23/2012 5:51 PM, Steven Johnson wrote:
>>>> Another what would you do question, or maybe, how would you respond 
>>>> scenarios for you all to ponder.  Many times, we hear of guides and 
>>>> other service dogs being attacked by other stray or uncontrolled 
>>>> dogs, rendering the attacked dog unable to continue in their line of
work.
>>>> Today, I learned from a colleague at work, that her son's good 
>>>> friend, who is blind and attending a formal blind training program, 
>>>> had his dog viciously attacked by another dog.  The injuries were 
>>>> severe, the attacked was unprovoked and the trainers had to break 
>>>> up the fight, but the guide that was attacked, is now showing very 
>>>> serious signs of fear
>>> and anxiety.
>>>>
>>>> What would you do if you were the handler?
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>> 2.
>>>>
>>>>
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>>
>>
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