[nagdu] My Apologies!

Thu Aug 9 20:04:32 UTC 2012

Hahahahaha, Marion!
I know you support the owner-trainers here!  Now, don't go pulling any 
"Romneys" here!  He said California was like Greece with the economic 
problems - and had to back peddle a bit. LOL!

Lyn and Landon
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 11:10 AM
Subject: [nagdu] My Apologies!

>        My message did not come out the way I meant it to read! What a 
> difference a word makes! I meant to write, "I have never met an 
> owner-trained dog that was *not* as well controlled as a program dog!" The 
> way I originally wrote this message was cumbersome, so i editted it and 
> really screwed up the meaning. In these days of political attack ads, I 
> sure hope my words don't get disseminated far and wide, giving the 
> impression I look upon owner-traners poorly. Those who really know my view 
> on this issue will attest to the fact that I am fully supportive of 
> owner-trainers! Sorry 'bout that, Chief!
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Pawpower Creations" <pawpower at cox.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 8:56 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dogs And VA Facilities--what?!
>
>
>> Marion, I have never met a program trained dog that was as well trained 
>> and
>> well controlled as either mine or Rox'E'S owner trained dogs.  In fact 
>> most
>> of the owner trainers that we know have had awesomely well behaved dogs 
>> and
>> I would stack them up against any program trained dog any day of the 
>> week.
>>
>> That is not to say that program trained dogs are not well controlled or 
>> well
>> trained, it is just that I haven't met any, or I should say I have met 
>> very
>> few which I could call well controlled.  I just don't think it is fair to
>> lump all owner trained dogs in to a group simply because the experiences 
>> you
>> have had with them have been less than stellar.
>> JMHO
>>
>> Woofs and wags from the pawpower pack,
>>
>> Queen Bristol, Mill'E to the max, Rudy the dude in spirit,  baby girl 
>> Laveau
>> and Bayou Baylee.
>>
>> Pawpower Creations,  Products designed with you and your canine in mind.
>> Bob Blackner/Rox'e Homstad,
>> 504-312-2609
>> pawpower at cox.net
>> www.pawpowercreations.com
>>
>> And be sure and visit bayou Baylee's blog at:
>> www.pawpowercreations.com/wordpress
>> See you there.
>>
>>
>> I asked for strength that I might rear her perfectly;
>> I was given weakness that I might feed her more treats.
>>
>> I asked for good health that I might rest easy;
>> I was given a "special needs" dog that I might know nurturing.
>>
>> I asked for an obedient dog that I might feel proud;
>> I was given stubbornness that I might feel humble.
>>
>> I asked for compliance that I might feel masterful;
>> I was given a clown that I might laugh.
>>
>> I asked for a companion that I might not feel lonely;
>> I was given a best friend that I would feel loved.
>>
>> I got nothing I asked for,
>> But everything that I needed.
>>
>>
>>
>> Author unknown
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Marion Gwizdala
>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 6:28 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dogs And VA Facilities--what?!
>>
>> Vanessa,
>>    I'm not sure if I agree with your message completely. I have never met
>> an owner-trained guide dog that was as well controlled as a program dog.
>> NAGDU and the National Association of Blind veterans will work with our
>> General Counsel to create a better policy for the VA.
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Vanessa Lowery" <vlowery at dhr.state.md.us>
>> To: "the National Association of Guide Dog Users' 'NAGDU Mailing List"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 3:40 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dogs And VA Facilities--what?!
>>
>>
>>> OK, that was a history lesson, for sure.  Thanks, jenine.  This also 
>>> tells
>>
>>> me that GdUI's leadership is aware of the same issue.
>>>
>>> But this also speaks to the concerns that we all have about service 
>>> dogs,
>>> be they program-trained or owner-trained.  The issue being control of 
>>> the
>>> dog.  Sounds like some of the owner-trained dogs, though they may 
>>> perform
>>> tasks, are not under good control, and that is what brought about this
>>> ruling.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Vanessa Lowery, LGSW
>>> Adult and Community Services Division
>>> Adult Services Screening Unit
>>> 410-853-3550
>>> VLowery at dhr.state.md.us
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com> 8/8/2012 3:27 PM >>>
>>> Buddy,
>>>
>>>
>>> Let me try to explain this access issue. We have been dealing with this 
>>> at
>>> GDF and our service dog organization, America's Vetdogs, for the past
>>> several years.
>>>
>>> The first thing to know about any Veterans Administration facility is 
>>> that
>>> there is no overall governing structure that covers every aspect of its
>>> operation. Each facility director is allowed, under federal directive, 
>>> to
>>> establish policies and procedures according to the needs, within certain
>>> parameters of course, of that facility.
>>>
>>> Veterans and staff alike have a saying: "If you've been to one VA
>>> facility,
>>> you've been to one VA facility."
>>>
>>> Although the Secretary in DC has given some general guidance, it is only
>>> that and each facility may establish its own rules for access.
>>>
>>> Remember, Veterans Administration facilities are federal and do not fall
>>> under the ADA. They fall under the Rehabilitation Act and even more
>>> specifically, under these guidelines established by the Secretary of
>>> Veterans Affairs.
>>>
>>> As the popularity of service dogs to assist with many disabling 
>>> conditions
>>> has risen, a number of people have owner trained pets or acquired dogs 
>>> not
>>> suitable for the work. These people know that their dogs are covered 
>>> under
>>> the ADA and truly do believe that this coverage extends to the VA 
>>> system.
>>> Just as with the general public, when any dog designated as a service
>>> animal
>>> does not behave properly, disrupts activities or poses a danger to 
>>> people,
>>> it can be removed from the facility. This is true with the VA as well, 
>>> but
>>> as with the general public, the VA has chosen to use a wide ranging
>>> punishment for a very specific issue. We receive calls at least once a
>>> week
>>> from VA facilities asking how to ban dogs who attack staff and other
>>> service
>>> dogs. According to the VA staff calling, most of these dogs are owner or
>>> privately trained. Some, however, as we point out, are indeed trained by
>>> accredited facilities. We advise the VA staff to first work with the
>>> individual to alert him/her that the dog's behavior is not appropriate 
>>> and
>>> if it continues with no attempt to correct it, the dog can be banned 
>>> from
>>> the facility. We also refer them to their facility's policy on service
>>> animal access, which may or may not state this.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, many veterans are also using service dogs as protection
>>> devices for personal safety which is not at all a function of the work
>>> service dogs are generally expected to do and is not allowed under the 
>>> ADA
>>> or other access laws.
>>>
>>> In order to establish some kind of order in who is bringing dogs into VA
>>> facilities, many facilities have decided to adopt the standard that any
>>> service animal entering the facility must have been trained by an
>>> organization with either Assistance Dogs International (ADI) or
>>> International Guide Dog Federation (IGDF) credentials. Handlers who 
>>> cannot
>>> show ID with the logos of either of these organizations and an 
>>> associated
>>> training provider will not be allowed to take their service or guide 
>>> dogs
>>> into the VA facility.
>>>
>>> You're probably thinking that people can just get these logos on line 
>>> and
>>> make up ID cards. They could but ADI and IGDF are extremely strict about
>>> who
>>> and where their logos may be used and will seek whatever legal remedies
>>> appropriate when they discover misuse of their logos. If you have a 
>>> guide
>>> dog school ID and your school is accredited by IGDF, chances are it 
>>> bares
>>> that logo.
>>>
>>> This VA access standard generally has not touched the guide dog handlers
>>> much in the past but increasingly, the rule is being enforced more
>>> strictly
>>> so that guide dogs, once held separately by the VA in general in terms 
>>> of
>>> access and provision of benefits, are now being included in a general
>>> service animal category and more closely scrutinized.
>>>
>>> This is truly one of those pendulum swings in access rights that happens
>>> when things get too out of control for an entity. We saw this in the 
>>> July
>>> 2010 revision of the ADA's service animal definition and standards. The 
>>> VA
>>> is following that general line with these regulations.
>>>
>>> I will not go into whether I think this is right or wrong as that is a
>>> whole
>>> other topic, but just to let you know, it is out there and it does 
>>> affect
>>> many people seeking services from the VA.
>>>
>>> There are efforts in Congress already to change this guidance but some 
>>> of
>>> those efforts are based on incorrect information and assumptions.
>>>
>>> What can NAGDU do about this situation? One thing you can do that would 
>>> be
>>> very helpful for those of us in organizations that work directly with 
>>> the
>>> VA
>>> for our handlers is to ask your handlers who are using VA facilities,
>>> either
>>> as veterans or dependants, whether or not their access with their dogs 
>>> has
>>> been questioned, challenged or denied within the past year. If so, 
>>> please
>>> let me know privately.
>>>
>>> As I said, each VA facility is its own entity regarding how strictly the
>>> guidelines for service animals are enforced. Some facilities allow pets
>>> and
>>> therapy animals without question while others are extremely strict about
>>> showing ID for the service animal each time the person comes to the
>>> facility. It all depends on the experiences and attitude of the facility
>>> director and staff.
>>>
>>> Hope this helps.
>>>
>>> Jenine Stanley
>>> jeninems at wowway.com
>>> http://www.twitter.com/jeninems
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Buddy Brannan
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 1:07 PM
>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users NAGDU Mailing List
>>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dogs And VA Facilities--what?!
>>>
>>> Someone just brought the following to my attention. What does this mean
>>> for
>>> owner/trained guide and service dogs? Moreover, what does this mean for
>>> the
>>> future of what constitutes a service dog?
>>>
>>> From
>>>
>> http://thomas.loc.gov/home/gpoxmlc112/h1627_enr.xml#toc-H547AD04B80A24ADCBB0
>>> 2C96CBF22D067
>>>
>>> SEC. 109. USE OF SERVICE DOGS ON PROPERTY OF THE DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS
>>> AFFAIRS.
>>> Section 901 is amended by adding at the end the following new 
>>> subsection:
>>>
>>>
>>> "(f)(1) The Secretary may not prohibit the use of a covered service dog 
>>> in
>>> any facility or on any property of the Department or in any facility or 
>>> on
>>> any property that receives funding from the Secretary.
>>>
>>> "(2) For purposes of this subsection, a covered service dog is a service
>>> dog
>>> that has been trained by an entity that is accredited by an appropriate
>>> accrediting body that evaluates and accredits organizations which train
>>> guide or service dogs.".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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