[nagdu] My Apologies!

Thu Aug 9 21:11:04 UTC 2012

Yah, and the list may have to take up donations for his replacement parts!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marsha Drenth" <marsha.drenth at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] My Apologies!


> Ah! So this is what happens to Marion as he gets older and older. LOL I 
> just kidding. Marion your not old, nor losing it because of your age.
>
> *runs and hides*
> Marsha drenthSent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 9, 2012, at 3:20 PM, "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com> 
> wrote:
>
>> Ah Marion,
>>
>> Is this what happens just after a birthday?  (grin)
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Marion Gwizdala
>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 11:10 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: [nagdu] My Apologies!
>>
>>        My message did not come out the way I meant it to read! What a
>> difference a word makes! I meant to write, "I have never met an
>> owner-trained dog that was *not* as well controlled as a program dog!" 
>> The
>> way I originally wrote this message was cumbersome, so i editted it and
>> really screwed up the meaning. In these days of political attack ads, I 
>> sure
>> hope my words don't get disseminated far and wide, giving the impression 
>> I
>> look upon owner-traners poorly. Those who really know my view on this 
>> issue
>> will attest to the fact that I am fully supportive of owner-trainers! 
>> Sorry
>> 'bout that, Chief!
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Pawpower Creations" <pawpower at cox.net>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 8:56 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dogs And VA Facilities--what?!
>>
>>
>>> Marion, I have never met a program trained dog that was as well trained
>>> and
>>> well controlled as either mine or Rox'E'S owner trained dogs.  In fact
>>> most
>>> of the owner trainers that we know have had awesomely well behaved dogs
>>> and
>>> I would stack them up against any program trained dog any day of the 
>>> week.
>>>
>>> That is not to say that program trained dogs are not well controlled or
>>> well
>>> trained, it is just that I haven't met any, or I should say I have met
>>> very
>>> few which I could call well controlled.  I just don't think it is fair 
>>> to
>>> lump all owner trained dogs in to a group simply because the experiences
>>> you
>>> have had with them have been less than stellar.
>>> JMHO
>>>
>>> Woofs and wags from the pawpower pack,
>>>
>>> Queen Bristol, Mill'E to the max, Rudy the dude in spirit,  baby girl
>>> Laveau
>>> and Bayou Baylee.
>>>
>>> Pawpower Creations,  Products designed with you and your canine in mind.
>>> Bob Blackner/Rox'e Homstad,
>>> 504-312-2609
>>> pawpower at cox.net
>>> www.pawpowercreations.com
>>>
>>> And be sure and visit bayou Baylee's blog at:
>>> www.pawpowercreations.com/wordpress
>>> See you there.
>>>
>>>
>>> I asked for strength that I might rear her perfectly;
>>> I was given weakness that I might feed her more treats.
>>>
>>> I asked for good health that I might rest easy;
>>> I was given a "special needs" dog that I might know nurturing.
>>>
>>> I asked for an obedient dog that I might feel proud;
>>> I was given stubbornness that I might feel humble.
>>>
>>> I asked for compliance that I might feel masterful;
>>> I was given a clown that I might laugh.
>>>
>>> I asked for a companion that I might not feel lonely;
>>> I was given a best friend that I would feel loved.
>>>
>>> I got nothing I asked for,
>>> But everything that I needed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Author unknown
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Marion Gwizdala
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 6:28 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dogs And VA Facilities--what?!
>>>
>>> Vanessa,
>>>   I'm not sure if I agree with your message completely. I have never met
>>> an owner-trained guide dog that was as well controlled as a program dog.
>>> NAGDU and the National Association of Blind veterans will work with our
>>> General Counsel to create a better policy for the VA.
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Vanessa Lowery" <vlowery at dhr.state.md.us>
>>> To: "the National Association of Guide Dog Users' 'NAGDU Mailing List"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 3:40 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dogs And VA Facilities--what?!
>>>
>>>
>>>> OK, that was a history lesson, for sure.  Thanks, jenine.  This also
>>>> tells
>>>
>>>> me that GdUI's leadership is aware of the same issue.
>>>>
>>>> But this also speaks to the concerns that we all have about service 
>>>> dogs,
>>>> be they program-trained or owner-trained.  The issue being control of 
>>>> the
>>>> dog.  Sounds like some of the owner-trained dogs, though they may 
>>>> perform
>>>> tasks, are not under good control, and that is what brought about this
>>>> ruling.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Vanessa Lowery, LGSW
>>>> Adult and Community Services Division
>>>> Adult Services Screening Unit
>>>> 410-853-3550
>>>> VLowery at dhr.state.md.us
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com> 8/8/2012 3:27 PM >>>
>>>> Buddy,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Let me try to explain this access issue. We have been dealing with this
>>>> at
>>>> GDF and our service dog organization, America's Vetdogs, for the past
>>>> several years.
>>>>
>>>> The first thing to know about any Veterans Administration facility is
>>>> that
>>>> there is no overall governing structure that covers every aspect of its
>>>> operation. Each facility director is allowed, under federal directive, 
>>>> to
>>>> establish policies and procedures according to the needs, within 
>>>> certain
>>>> parameters of course, of that facility.
>>>>
>>>> Veterans and staff alike have a saying: "If you've been to one VA
>>>> facility,
>>>> you've been to one VA facility."
>>>>
>>>> Although the Secretary in DC has given some general guidance, it is 
>>>> only
>>>> that and each facility may establish its own rules for access.
>>>>
>>>> Remember, Veterans Administration facilities are federal and do not 
>>>> fall
>>>> under the ADA. They fall under the Rehabilitation Act and even more
>>>> specifically, under these guidelines established by the Secretary of
>>>> Veterans Affairs.
>>>>
>>>> As the popularity of service dogs to assist with many disabling
>>>> conditions
>>>> has risen, a number of people have owner trained pets or acquired dogs
>>>> not
>>>> suitable for the work. These people know that their dogs are covered
>>>> under
>>>> the ADA and truly do believe that this coverage extends to the VA 
>>>> system.
>>>> Just as with the general public, when any dog designated as a service
>>>> animal
>>>> does not behave properly, disrupts activities or poses a danger to
>>>> people,
>>>> it can be removed from the facility. This is true with the VA as well,
>>>> but
>>>> as with the general public, the VA has chosen to use a wide ranging
>>>> punishment for a very specific issue. We receive calls at least once a
>>>> week
>>>> from VA facilities asking how to ban dogs who attack staff and other
>>>> service
>>>> dogs. According to the VA staff calling, most of these dogs are owner 
>>>> or
>>>> privately trained. Some, however, as we point out, are indeed trained 
>>>> by
>>>> accredited facilities. We advise the VA staff to first work with the
>>>> individual to alert him/her that the dog's behavior is not appropriate
>>>> and
>>>> if it continues with no attempt to correct it, the dog can be banned 
>>>> from
>>>> the facility. We also refer them to their facility's policy on service
>>>> animal access, which may or may not state this.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, many veterans are also using service dogs as protection
>>>> devices for personal safety which is not at all a function of the work
>>>> service dogs are generally expected to do and is not allowed under the
>>>> ADA
>>>> or other access laws.
>>>>
>>>> In order to establish some kind of order in who is bringing dogs into 
>>>> VA
>>>> facilities, many facilities have decided to adopt the standard that any
>>>> service animal entering the facility must have been trained by an
>>>> organization with either Assistance Dogs International (ADI) or
>>>> International Guide Dog Federation (IGDF) credentials. Handlers who
>>>> cannot
>>>> show ID with the logos of either of these organizations and an 
>>>> associated
>>>> training provider will not be allowed to take their service or guide 
>>>> dogs
>>>> into the VA facility.
>>>>
>>>> You're probably thinking that people can just get these logos on line 
>>>> and
>>>> make up ID cards. They could but ADI and IGDF are extremely strict 
>>>> about
>>>> who
>>>> and where their logos may be used and will seek whatever legal remedies
>>>> appropriate when they discover misuse of their logos. If you have a 
>>>> guide
>>>> dog school ID and your school is accredited by IGDF, chances are it 
>>>> bares
>>>> that logo.
>>>>
>>>> This VA access standard generally has not touched the guide dog 
>>>> handlers
>>>> much in the past but increasingly, the rule is being enforced more
>>>> strictly
>>>> so that guide dogs, once held separately by the VA in general in terms 
>>>> of
>>>> access and provision of benefits, are now being included in a general
>>>> service animal category and more closely scrutinized.
>>>>
>>>> This is truly one of those pendulum swings in access rights that 
>>>> happens
>>>> when things get too out of control for an entity. We saw this in the 
>>>> July
>>>> 2010 revision of the ADA's service animal definition and standards. The
>>>> VA
>>>> is following that general line with these regulations.
>>>>
>>>> I will not go into whether I think this is right or wrong as that is a
>>>> whole
>>>> other topic, but just to let you know, it is out there and it does 
>>>> affect
>>>> many people seeking services from the VA.
>>>>
>>>> There are efforts in Congress already to change this guidance but some 
>>>> of
>>>> those efforts are based on incorrect information and assumptions.
>>>>
>>>> What can NAGDU do about this situation? One thing you can do that would
>>>> be
>>>> very helpful for those of us in organizations that work directly with 
>>>> the
>>>> VA
>>>> for our handlers is to ask your handlers who are using VA facilities,
>>>> either
>>>> as veterans or dependants, whether or not their access with their dogs
>>>> has
>>>> been questioned, challenged or denied within the past year. If so, 
>>>> please
>>>> let me know privately.
>>>>
>>>> As I said, each VA facility is its own entity regarding how strictly 
>>>> the
>>>> guidelines for service animals are enforced. Some facilities allow pets
>>>> and
>>>> therapy animals without question while others are extremely strict 
>>>> about
>>>> showing ID for the service animal each time the person comes to the
>>>> facility. It all depends on the experiences and attitude of the 
>>>> facility
>>>> director and staff.
>>>>
>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>>
>>>> Jenine Stanley
>>>> jeninems at wowway.com
>>>> http://www.twitter.com/jeninems
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Buddy Brannan
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 1:07 PM
>>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users NAGDU Mailing List
>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dogs And VA Facilities--what?!
>>>>
>>>> Someone just brought the following to my attention. What does this mean
>>>> for
>>>> owner/trained guide and service dogs? Moreover, what does this mean for
>>>> the
>>>> future of what constitutes a service dog?
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>>
>>>
>> http://thomas.loc.gov/home/gpoxmlc112/h1627_enr.xml#toc-H547AD04B80A24ADCBB0
>>>> 2C96CBF22D067
>>>>
>>>> SEC. 109. USE OF SERVICE DOGS ON PROPERTY OF THE DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS
>>>> AFFAIRS.
>>>> Section 901 is amended by adding at the end the following new 
>>>> subsection:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "(f)(1) The Secretary may not prohibit the use of a covered service dog
>>>> in
>>>> any facility or on any property of the Department or in any facility or
>>>> on
>>>> any property that receives funding from the Secretary.
>>>>
>>>> "(2) For purposes of this subsection, a covered service dog is a 
>>>> service
>>>> dog
>>>> that has been trained by an entity that is accredited by an appropriate
>>>> accrediting body that evaluates and accredits organizations which train
>>>> guide or service dogs.".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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