[nagdu] My Apologies!

Thu Aug 9 22:47:14 UTC 2012

How true!  He probably will anyway!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 5:25 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] My Apologies!


> In that case, you might want to ceck out the spelling of e s t e e m e d. 
> Otherwise, he might get back at ya.
> cl
>
> On Aug 9, 2012, at 4:13 PM, Larry D. Keeler wrote:
>
>> you're here by replying though!
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 4:28 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] My Apologies!
>>
>>
>>> I'm sure glad I'm not participating in this thread.
>>>
>>> CL
>>>
>>> On Aug 9, 2012, at 3:14 PM, Michael Hingson wrote:
>>>
>>>> Marsha,
>>>>
>>>> Are you sure he is not losing it?  Let's see if he remembers to respond 
>>>> to
>>>> this thread.
>>>>
>>>> He has been confused about using the term "all y'all" in a sentence.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Marsha Drenth
>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 12:40 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] My Apologies!
>>>>
>>>> Ah! So this is what happens to Marion as he gets older and older. LOL I 
>>>> just
>>>> kidding. Marion your not old, nor losing it because of your age.
>>>>
>>>> *runs and hides*
>>>> Marsha drenthSent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 9, 2012, at 3:20 PM, "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ah Marion,
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this what happens just after a birthday?  (grin)
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 11:10 AM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] My Apologies!
>>>>>
>>>>>      My message did not come out the way I meant it to read! What a
>>>>> difference a word makes! I meant to write, "I have never met an
>>>>> owner-trained dog that was *not* as well controlled as a program dog!"
>>>>> The way I originally wrote this message was cumbersome, so i editted
>>>>> it and really screwed up the meaning. In these days of political
>>>>> attack ads, I sure hope my words don't get disseminated far and wide,
>>>>> giving the impression I look upon owner-traners poorly. Those who
>>>>> really know my view on this issue will attest to the fact that I am
>>>>> fully supportive of owner-trainers! Sorry 'bout that, Chief!
>>>>>
>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>> Marion
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Pawpower Creations" <pawpower at cox.net>
>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog 
>>>>> Users'"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 8:56 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dogs And VA Facilities--what?!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Marion, I have never met a program trained dog that was as well
>>>>>> trained and well controlled as either mine or Rox'E'S owner trained
>>>>>> dogs.  In fact most of the owner trainers that we know have had
>>>>>> awesomely well behaved dogs and I would stack them up against any
>>>>>> program trained dog any day of the week.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is not to say that program trained dogs are not well controlled
>>>>>> or well trained, it is just that I haven't met any, or I should say I
>>>>>> have met very few which I could call well controlled.  I just don't
>>>>>> think it is fair to lump all owner trained dogs in to a group simply
>>>>>> because the experiences you have had with them have been less than
>>>>>> stellar.
>>>>>> JMHO
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Woofs and wags from the pawpower pack,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Queen Bristol, Mill'E to the max, Rudy the dude in spirit,  baby girl
>>>>>> Laveau and Bayou Baylee.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pawpower Creations,  Products designed with you and your canine in 
>>>>>> mind.
>>>>>> Bob Blackner/Rox'e Homstad,
>>>>>> 504-312-2609
>>>>>> pawpower at cox.net
>>>>>> www.pawpowercreations.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And be sure and visit bayou Baylee's blog at:
>>>>>> www.pawpowercreations.com/wordpress
>>>>>> See you there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I asked for strength that I might rear her perfectly; I was given
>>>>>> weakness that I might feed her more treats.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I asked for good health that I might rest easy; I was given a
>>>>>> "special needs" dog that I might know nurturing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I asked for an obedient dog that I might feel proud; I was given
>>>>>> stubbornness that I might feel humble.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I asked for compliance that I might feel masterful; I was given a
>>>>>> clown that I might laugh.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I asked for a companion that I might not feel lonely; I was given a
>>>>>> best friend that I would feel loved.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I got nothing I asked for,
>>>>>> But everything that I needed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Author unknown
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 6:28 AM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dogs And VA Facilities--what?!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Vanessa,
>>>>>> I'm not sure if I agree with your message completely. I have never
>>>>>> met an owner-trained guide dog that was as well controlled as a 
>>>>>> program
>>>> dog.
>>>>>> NAGDU and the National Association of Blind veterans will work with
>>>>>> our General Counsel to create a better policy for the VA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>> Marion
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Vanessa Lowery" <vlowery at dhr.state.md.us>
>>>>>> To: "the National Association of Guide Dog Users' 'NAGDU Mailing 
>>>>>> List"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 3:40 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dogs And VA Facilities--what?!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OK, that was a history lesson, for sure.  Thanks, jenine.  This also
>>>>>>> tells
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> me that GdUI's leadership is aware of the same issue.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But this also speaks to the concerns that we all have about service
>>>>>>> dogs, be they program-trained or owner-trained.  The issue being
>>>>>>> control of the dog.  Sounds like some of the owner-trained dogs,
>>>>>>> though they may perform tasks, are not under good control, and that
>>>>>>> is what brought about this ruling.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Vanessa Lowery, LGSW
>>>>>>> Adult and Community Services Division Adult Services Screening Unit
>>>>>>> 410-853-3550
>>>>>>> VLowery at dhr.state.md.us
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com> 8/8/2012 3:27 PM >>>
>>>>>>> Buddy,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let me try to explain this access issue. We have been dealing with
>>>>>>> this at GDF and our service dog organization, America's Vetdogs, for
>>>>>>> the past several years.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The first thing to know about any Veterans Administration facility
>>>>>>> is that there is no overall governing structure that covers every
>>>>>>> aspect of its operation. Each facility director is allowed, under
>>>>>>> federal directive, to establish policies and procedures according to
>>>>>>> the needs, within certain parameters of course, of that facility.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Veterans and staff alike have a saying: "If you've been to one VA
>>>>>>> facility, you've been to one VA facility."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Although the Secretary in DC has given some general guidance, it is
>>>>>>> only that and each facility may establish its own rules for access.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Remember, Veterans Administration facilities are federal and do not
>>>>>>> fall under the ADA. They fall under the Rehabilitation Act and even
>>>>>>> more specifically, under these guidelines established by the
>>>>>>> Secretary of Veterans Affairs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As the popularity of service dogs to assist with many disabling
>>>>>>> conditions has risen, a number of people have owner trained pets or
>>>>>>> acquired dogs not suitable for the work. These people know that
>>>>>>> their dogs are covered under the ADA and truly do believe that this
>>>>>>> coverage extends to the VA system.
>>>>>>> Just as with the general public, when any dog designated as a
>>>>>>> service animal does not behave properly, disrupts activities or
>>>>>>> poses a danger to people, it can be removed from the facility. This
>>>>>>> is true with the VA as well, but as with the general public, the VA
>>>>>>> has chosen to use a wide ranging punishment for a very specific
>>>>>>> issue. We receive calls at least once a week from VA facilities
>>>>>>> asking how to ban dogs who attack staff and other service dogs.
>>>>>>> According to the VA staff calling, most of these dogs are owner or
>>>>>>> privately trained. Some, however, as we point out, are indeed
>>>>>>> trained by accredited facilities. We advise the VA staff to first
>>>>>>> work with the individual to alert him/her that the dog's behavior is
>>>>>>> not appropriate and if it continues with no attempt to correct it,
>>>>>>> the dog can be banned from the facility. We also refer them to their
>>>>>>> facility's policy on service animal access, which may or may not
>>>>>>> state this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Unfortunately, many veterans are also using service dogs as
>>>>>>> protection devices for personal safety which is not at all a
>>>>>>> function of the work service dogs are generally expected to do and
>>>>>>> is not allowed under the ADA or other access laws.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In order to establish some kind of order in who is bringing dogs
>>>>>>> into VA facilities, many facilities have decided to adopt the
>>>>>>> standard that any service animal entering the facility must have
>>>>>>> been trained by an organization with either Assistance Dogs
>>>>>>> International (ADI) or International Guide Dog Federation (IGDF)
>>>>>>> credentials. Handlers who cannot show ID with the logos of either of
>>>>>>> these organizations and an associated training provider will not be
>>>>>>> allowed to take their service or guide dogs into the VA facility.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You're probably thinking that people can just get these logos on
>>>>>>> line and make up ID cards. They could but ADI and IGDF are extremely
>>>>>>> strict about who and where their logos may be used and will seek
>>>>>>> whatever legal remedies appropriate when they discover misuse of
>>>>>>> their logos. If you have a guide dog school ID and your school is
>>>>>>> accredited by IGDF, chances are it bares that logo.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This VA access standard generally has not touched the guide dog
>>>>>>> handlers much in the past but increasingly, the rule is being
>>>>>>> enforced more strictly so that guide dogs, once held separately by
>>>>>>> the VA in general in terms of access and provision of benefits, are
>>>>>>> now being included in a general service animal category and more
>>>>>>> closely scrutinized.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is truly one of those pendulum swings in access rights that
>>>>>>> happens when things get too out of control for an entity. We saw
>>>>>>> this in the July
>>>>>>> 2010 revision of the ADA's service animal definition and standards.
>>>>>>> The VA is following that general line with these regulations.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I will not go into whether I think this is right or wrong as that is
>>>>>>> a whole other topic, but just to let you know, it is out there and
>>>>>>> it does affect many people seeking services from the VA.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are efforts in Congress already to change this guidance but
>>>>>>> some of those efforts are based on incorrect information and
>>>> assumptions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What can NAGDU do about this situation? One thing you can do that
>>>>>>> would be very helpful for those of us in organizations that work
>>>>>>> directly with the VA for our handlers is to ask your handlers who
>>>>>>> are using VA facilities, either as veterans or dependants, whether
>>>>>>> or not their access with their dogs has been questioned, challenged
>>>>>>> or denied within the past year. If so, please let me know privately.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As I said, each VA facility is its own entity regarding how strictly
>>>>>>> the guidelines for service animals are enforced. Some facilities
>>>>>>> allow pets and therapy animals without question while others are
>>>>>>> extremely strict about showing ID for the service animal each time
>>>>>>> the person comes to the facility. It all depends on the experiences
>>>>>>> and attitude of the facility director and staff.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jenine Stanley
>>>>>>> jeninems at wowway.com
>>>>>>> http://www.twitter.com/jeninems
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>> Behalf Of Buddy Brannan
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 1:07 PM
>>>>>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users NAGDU Mailing List
>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dogs And VA Facilities--what?!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Someone just brought the following to my attention. What does this
>>>>>>> mean for owner/trained guide and service dogs? Moreover, what does
>>>>>>> this mean for the future of what constitutes a service dog?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://thomas.loc.gov/home/gpoxmlc112/h1627_enr.xml#toc-H547AD04B80A24
>>>>> ADCBB0
>>>>>>> 2C96CBF22D067
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> SEC. 109. USE OF SERVICE DOGS ON PROPERTY OF THE DEPARTMENT OF
>>>>>>> VETERANS AFFAIRS.
>>>>>>> Section 901 is amended by adding at the end the following new
>>>> subsection:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "(f)(1) The Secretary may not prohibit the use of a covered service
>>>>>>> dog in any facility or on any property of the Department or in any
>>>>>>> facility or on any property that receives funding from the
>>>>>>> Secretary.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "(2) For purposes of this subsection, a covered service dog is a
>>>>>>> service dog that has been trained by an entity that is accredited by
>>>>>>> an appropriate accrediting body that evaluates and accredits
>>>>>>> organizations which train guide or service dogs.".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>>>>>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jeninems%40wowway
>>>>>>> .com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/vlowery%40dhr.state
>>>>> .md.us
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> **********************************************************************
>>>>> ******
>>>>>> ***********************
>>>>>>> This Email message and any attachment may contain information that
>>>>>>> is proprietary, legally privileged and/or confidential. This Email
>>>>>>> is intended solely for the use of the person(s) to which it is
>>>>>>> addressed. If you are not an intended recipient, or the employee or
>>>>>>> agent responsible for delivery of this Email to the intended
>>>>>>> recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
>>>>>>> distribution or copying of this Email is strictly prohibited. If you
>>>>>>> have received this message in error, please immediately notify the
>>>>>>> sender and permanently delete this Email and any copies.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> **********************************************************************
>>>>> ******
>>>>>> ***********************
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> ------
>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizo
>>>>>>> n.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pawpower%40cox.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon
>>>>>> .net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nagdu:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/info%40michaelhings
>>>>> on.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nagdu:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gma
>>>>> il.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>>> nagdu:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/info%40michaelhingson.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>>> nagdu:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> nagdu:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/lkeeler%40comcast.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nagdu:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nagdu:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/lkeeler%40comcast.net