[nagdu] My Apologies!

Marsha Drenth marsha.drenth at gmail.com
Thu Aug 9 23:31:44 UTC 2012


Awwww we were just havin fun. Didn't mean any harm. Its no fun if we can't make fun of Marion once in a while. 

ok, well i let it go, and helped in the thread, so guess we should get back to topic. 



Marsha drenthSent from my iPhone

On Aug 9, 2012, at 4:28 PM, Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm sure glad I'm not participating in this thread.
> 
> CL
> 
> On Aug 9, 2012, at 3:14 PM, Michael Hingson wrote:
> 
>> Marsha,
>> 
>> Are you sure he is not losing it?  Let's see if he remembers to respond to
>> this thread.
>> 
>> He has been confused about using the term "all y'all" in a sentence.
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>> Of Marsha Drenth
>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 12:40 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] My Apologies!
>> 
>> Ah! So this is what happens to Marion as he gets older and older. LOL I just
>> kidding. Marion your not old, nor losing it because of your age. 
>> 
>> *runs and hides*
>> Marsha drenthSent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Aug 9, 2012, at 3:20 PM, "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Ah Marion,
>>> 
>>> Is this what happens just after a birthday?  (grin)
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>> Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 11:10 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: [nagdu] My Apologies!
>>> 
>>>      My message did not come out the way I meant it to read! What a 
>>> difference a word makes! I meant to write, "I have never met an 
>>> owner-trained dog that was *not* as well controlled as a program dog!" 
>>> The way I originally wrote this message was cumbersome, so i editted 
>>> it and really screwed up the meaning. In these days of political 
>>> attack ads, I sure hope my words don't get disseminated far and wide, 
>>> giving the impression I look upon owner-traners poorly. Those who 
>>> really know my view on this issue will attest to the fact that I am 
>>> fully supportive of owner-trainers! Sorry 'bout that, Chief!
>>> 
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Pawpower Creations" <pawpower at cox.net>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 8:56 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dogs And VA Facilities--what?!
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Marion, I have never met a program trained dog that was as well 
>>>> trained and well controlled as either mine or Rox'E'S owner trained 
>>>> dogs.  In fact most of the owner trainers that we know have had 
>>>> awesomely well behaved dogs and I would stack them up against any 
>>>> program trained dog any day of the week.
>>>> 
>>>> That is not to say that program trained dogs are not well controlled 
>>>> or well trained, it is just that I haven't met any, or I should say I 
>>>> have met very few which I could call well controlled.  I just don't 
>>>> think it is fair to lump all owner trained dogs in to a group simply 
>>>> because the experiences you have had with them have been less than 
>>>> stellar.
>>>> JMHO
>>>> 
>>>> Woofs and wags from the pawpower pack,
>>>> 
>>>> Queen Bristol, Mill'E to the max, Rudy the dude in spirit,  baby girl 
>>>> Laveau and Bayou Baylee.
>>>> 
>>>> Pawpower Creations,  Products designed with you and your canine in mind.
>>>> Bob Blackner/Rox'e Homstad,
>>>> 504-312-2609
>>>> pawpower at cox.net
>>>> www.pawpowercreations.com
>>>> 
>>>> And be sure and visit bayou Baylee's blog at:
>>>> www.pawpowercreations.com/wordpress
>>>> See you there.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I asked for strength that I might rear her perfectly; I was given 
>>>> weakness that I might feed her more treats.
>>>> 
>>>> I asked for good health that I might rest easy; I was given a 
>>>> "special needs" dog that I might know nurturing.
>>>> 
>>>> I asked for an obedient dog that I might feel proud; I was given 
>>>> stubbornness that I might feel humble.
>>>> 
>>>> I asked for compliance that I might feel masterful; I was given a 
>>>> clown that I might laugh.
>>>> 
>>>> I asked for a companion that I might not feel lonely; I was given a 
>>>> best friend that I would feel loved.
>>>> 
>>>> I got nothing I asked for,
>>>> But everything that I needed.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Author unknown
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>>> Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala
>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 6:28 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dogs And VA Facilities--what?!
>>>> 
>>>> Vanessa,
>>>> I'm not sure if I agree with your message completely. I have never 
>>>> met an owner-trained guide dog that was as well controlled as a program
>> dog.
>>>> NAGDU and the National Association of Blind veterans will work with 
>>>> our General Counsel to create a better policy for the VA.
>>>> 
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Vanessa Lowery" <vlowery at dhr.state.md.us>
>>>> To: "the National Association of Guide Dog Users' 'NAGDU Mailing List"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 3:40 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dogs And VA Facilities--what?!
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> OK, that was a history lesson, for sure.  Thanks, jenine.  This also 
>>>>> tells
>>>> 
>>>>> me that GdUI's leadership is aware of the same issue.
>>>>> 
>>>>> But this also speaks to the concerns that we all have about service 
>>>>> dogs, be they program-trained or owner-trained.  The issue being 
>>>>> control of the dog.  Sounds like some of the owner-trained dogs, 
>>>>> though they may perform tasks, are not under good control, and that 
>>>>> is what brought about this ruling.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Vanessa Lowery, LGSW
>>>>> Adult and Community Services Division Adult Services Screening Unit
>>>>> 410-853-3550
>>>>> VLowery at dhr.state.md.us
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com> 8/8/2012 3:27 PM >>>
>>>>> Buddy,
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Let me try to explain this access issue. We have been dealing with 
>>>>> this at GDF and our service dog organization, America's Vetdogs, for 
>>>>> the past several years.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The first thing to know about any Veterans Administration facility 
>>>>> is that there is no overall governing structure that covers every 
>>>>> aspect of its operation. Each facility director is allowed, under 
>>>>> federal directive, to establish policies and procedures according to 
>>>>> the needs, within certain parameters of course, of that facility.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Veterans and staff alike have a saying: "If you've been to one VA 
>>>>> facility, you've been to one VA facility."
>>>>> 
>>>>> Although the Secretary in DC has given some general guidance, it is 
>>>>> only that and each facility may establish its own rules for access.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Remember, Veterans Administration facilities are federal and do not 
>>>>> fall under the ADA. They fall under the Rehabilitation Act and even 
>>>>> more specifically, under these guidelines established by the 
>>>>> Secretary of Veterans Affairs.
>>>>> 
>>>>> As the popularity of service dogs to assist with many disabling 
>>>>> conditions has risen, a number of people have owner trained pets or 
>>>>> acquired dogs not suitable for the work. These people know that 
>>>>> their dogs are covered under the ADA and truly do believe that this 
>>>>> coverage extends to the VA system.
>>>>> Just as with the general public, when any dog designated as a 
>>>>> service animal does not behave properly, disrupts activities or 
>>>>> poses a danger to people, it can be removed from the facility. This 
>>>>> is true with the VA as well, but as with the general public, the VA 
>>>>> has chosen to use a wide ranging punishment for a very specific 
>>>>> issue. We receive calls at least once a week from VA facilities 
>>>>> asking how to ban dogs who attack staff and other service dogs. 
>>>>> According to the VA staff calling, most of these dogs are owner or 
>>>>> privately trained. Some, however, as we point out, are indeed 
>>>>> trained by accredited facilities. We advise the VA staff to first 
>>>>> work with the individual to alert him/her that the dog's behavior is 
>>>>> not appropriate and if it continues with no attempt to correct it, 
>>>>> the dog can be banned from the facility. We also refer them to their 
>>>>> facility's policy on service animal access, which may or may not 
>>>>> state this.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Unfortunately, many veterans are also using service dogs as 
>>>>> protection devices for personal safety which is not at all a 
>>>>> function of the work service dogs are generally expected to do and 
>>>>> is not allowed under the ADA or other access laws.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In order to establish some kind of order in who is bringing dogs 
>>>>> into VA facilities, many facilities have decided to adopt the 
>>>>> standard that any service animal entering the facility must have 
>>>>> been trained by an organization with either Assistance Dogs 
>>>>> International (ADI) or International Guide Dog Federation (IGDF) 
>>>>> credentials. Handlers who cannot show ID with the logos of either of 
>>>>> these organizations and an associated training provider will not be 
>>>>> allowed to take their service or guide dogs into the VA facility.
>>>>> 
>>>>> You're probably thinking that people can just get these logos on 
>>>>> line and make up ID cards. They could but ADI and IGDF are extremely 
>>>>> strict about who and where their logos may be used and will seek 
>>>>> whatever legal remedies appropriate when they discover misuse of 
>>>>> their logos. If you have a guide dog school ID and your school is 
>>>>> accredited by IGDF, chances are it bares that logo.
>>>>> 
>>>>> This VA access standard generally has not touched the guide dog 
>>>>> handlers much in the past but increasingly, the rule is being 
>>>>> enforced more strictly so that guide dogs, once held separately by 
>>>>> the VA in general in terms of access and provision of benefits, are 
>>>>> now being included in a general service animal category and more 
>>>>> closely scrutinized.
>>>>> 
>>>>> This is truly one of those pendulum swings in access rights that 
>>>>> happens when things get too out of control for an entity. We saw 
>>>>> this in the July
>>>>> 2010 revision of the ADA's service animal definition and standards. 
>>>>> The VA is following that general line with these regulations.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I will not go into whether I think this is right or wrong as that is 
>>>>> a whole other topic, but just to let you know, it is out there and 
>>>>> it does affect many people seeking services from the VA.
>>>>> 
>>>>> There are efforts in Congress already to change this guidance but 
>>>>> some of those efforts are based on incorrect information and
>> assumptions.
>>>>> 
>>>>> What can NAGDU do about this situation? One thing you can do that 
>>>>> would be very helpful for those of us in organizations that work 
>>>>> directly with the VA for our handlers is to ask your handlers who 
>>>>> are using VA facilities, either as veterans or dependants, whether 
>>>>> or not their access with their dogs has been questioned, challenged 
>>>>> or denied within the past year. If so, please let me know privately.
>>>>> 
>>>>> As I said, each VA facility is its own entity regarding how strictly 
>>>>> the guidelines for service animals are enforced. Some facilities 
>>>>> allow pets and therapy animals without question while others are 
>>>>> extremely strict about showing ID for the service animal each time 
>>>>> the person comes to the facility. It all depends on the experiences 
>>>>> and attitude of the facility director and staff.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Jenine Stanley
>>>>> jeninems at wowway.com
>>>>> http://www.twitter.com/jeninems
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>>>> Behalf Of Buddy Brannan
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 1:07 PM
>>>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users NAGDU Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dogs And VA Facilities--what?!
>>>>> 
>>>>> Someone just brought the following to my attention. What does this 
>>>>> mean for owner/trained guide and service dogs? Moreover, what does 
>>>>> this mean for the future of what constitutes a service dog?
>>>>> 
>>>>> From
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> http://thomas.loc.gov/home/gpoxmlc112/h1627_enr.xml#toc-H547AD04B80A24
>>> ADCBB0
>>>>> 2C96CBF22D067
>>>>> 
>>>>> SEC. 109. USE OF SERVICE DOGS ON PROPERTY OF THE DEPARTMENT OF 
>>>>> VETERANS AFFAIRS.
>>>>> Section 901 is amended by adding at the end the following new
>> subsection:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> "(f)(1) The Secretary may not prohibit the use of a covered service 
>>>>> dog in any facility or on any property of the Department or in any 
>>>>> facility or on any property that receives funding from the 
>>>>> Secretary.
>>>>> 
>>>>> "(2) For purposes of this subsection, a covered service dog is a 
>>>>> service dog that has been trained by an entity that is accredited by 
>>>>> an appropriate accrediting body that evaluates and accredits 
>>>>> organizations which train guide or service dogs.".
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>>>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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