[nagdu] "Some vision" was: Introduction and Questions

Brenda bjnite at windstream.net
Wed Feb 1 16:12:19 UTC 2012


Maybe it is a regional thing because I have always felt as a person with 
partial sight that agencies and activity groups for the visually 
impaired (blind and partial) favored the blind.  It was not as much of a 
feelgood to help someone with low vision.  Then there is the jealousy 
issue among people with varying degrees of vision.  I think at guide dog 
schools and other situations where blind and partial are together we 
need to work with each other and and have a compassionate attitude 
toward eachother.
Brenda

On 2/1/2012 10:54 AM, Tracy Carcione wrote:
> I have noticed an opposite attitude to that which Julie J describes.
> Rather than "This guy can see some, so he doesn't need any help",
> sometimes it's "It's so much easier to show this guy what to do because he
> can see a bit that we don't much want to bother with those totally blind
> people.  They're just so slow to get it."  Or something like that.  Like,
> we can show the guys with "some vision" videos and stuff, and they get it
> so much faster than those darn totals.
>
> I also had the feeling from my last trainer that she expected me to know
> about things I didn't know about.  As if I should know there were bushes
> coming up Ben would try to sniff.  How would I know?  True, we'd passed
> that way before, but I'd been paying attention to other things.  I guess I
> was supposed to use my amazing psychic powers  to know what was up ahead.
>
> I also once had a classmate tell me "You're pretty graceful, for a total."
>   Gee thanks.
>
> None of these attitudes are helpful.  I'd rather live and let live.
>
> Just for the record, I'm totally blind.
>
> Tracy
>
>
>> Thank you Julie.
>> I'm wondering if there should be a lecture on this issue at the guide dog
>> schools, just so people like me "get it".
>>
>> Another thing I've noticed is that I have encountered some people with low
>> vision that act as if their vision is more important then any data I may
>> give them.  For example, I was working in pairs with a lady who had "some
>> vision" by her words. We were about to cross a street, and I told her a
>> car was coming. She said "I don't see anything" right as the car zoomed
>> by. She said it in this tone that indicated she had to be right and I had
>> to be wrong.
>>
>> To her credit, she did thank me, though I'm still not sure she understood
>> her attitude.
>>
>> Combine this with the "Sometimes my vision works, sometimes it doesn't,
>> but I won't tell anybody what's going on" and it is incredibly
>> frustrating.
>>
>> And, I think I'd experience the same confusion if my husband said "I have
>> days when it's easier for me to take out the trash, and days when it
>> isn't, you guess which days and guess as to why this might be happening"
>> Add to that the attitude of "I'm a man and I take the trash out sooo much
>> better then you... but only when these mystical conditions are right" and
>> this make more sense.
>>
>> It's not my place to decide who needs a dog. It does impact me when I have
>> to deal with someone under conditions that have not been clearly explained
>> to me.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>> Of Julie J.
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 9:40 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>
>> Rebeka,
>>
>> This is very interesting to me.  I wonder if this not understanding of
>> differences in vision might contribute to some of the intolerance of
>> people with partial vision getting access to services and resources?  I
>> don't mean from you, personally, of course.  Just that lack of
>> understanding sometimes leads some people to come to incorrect
>> conclusions or make judgments.
>>
>> When I talk about stress and vision, I'm talking about mental stress
>> from trying to look everywhere at once or try to see things that are
>> just outside of my ability to see them. There is also actual stress or
>> strain to my eyes when I try to do to much visually.  I'd say this is
>> similar to someone trying to lift something that is really to heavy.
>> Your muscles might feel like burning, you might shake a bit from the
>> strain and later you will be sore.  The symptoms are different for
>> visual strain, but the effective outcome is about the same.
>>
>> For me first learning how to use a cane and then later a guide dog, has
>> meant that I don't need to be nervous that I'm going to miss something
>> visually.  The dog will do that for me, more reliably than I ever
>> could.    If I'm having a good vision day, meaning that my head isn't
>> thumping, my eyes aren't watering, the sun isn't shining and it's not
>> the first thing in the morning or late in the day, then I can use my
>> vision in useful ways.
>>
>> If I was denied the use of a guide dog, never got cane travel
>> instruction or the other alternative skills I've learned, I don't think
>> I'd be able to leave the house alone.   I wouldn't have a job, friends,
>> volunteer in the community or even be happy.  I'd be a prisoner in my
>> own home with no hope of parole.  I think I might lose my mind.
>>
>> Julie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2/1/2012 7:49 AM, Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) wrote:
>>>           I have no vision. Nobody has ever explained to me the
>>> differences in visual acuity and what that may mean until this
>>> discussion.
>>> For example, until I read Brenda's post, I had no clue that telling the
>>> difference between grass and pavement was harder, because when you do it
>>> with acane, it's a piece of cake.
>>>
>>> I understand from reading these posts how lighting can affect vision.
>>> I don't understand the stress or the "my vision changes from day-to-day"
>>> comments.
>>> I simply haven't had them explained in a manner that makes sense to me.
>>>
>>> I've encountered people with partial vision in my guide dog classes who
>>> can see a dime, in the next town, in the next county, and nobody ever
>>> explained that they may not see a bus right in front of them. So I'm
>>> left with a WTF?? Reaction.
>>>
>>> Add to that the fuzzy language of "My vision changes from day to day"
>>> and I'm totally confused.
>>>
>>> Nobody has explained what the visual acuity numbers mean either. So
>>> hearing those numbers without the tie-in to something tangible is Greek
>>> to me.
>>>
>>> It would be useful to me when I encounter someone with partial vision
>>> for them to tell me what they need/want me to do, not what they can or
>>> can't see, how that changes.  It's interesting to know, and I would like
>>> to know it, but practically speaking it means more to me if you say "I
>>> can't see the appropriate place to sit, can you take me to it"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Brenda
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 7:31 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>
>>> Well said Tami and marion.
>>>
>>> In addition, not only people with RP have trouble seeing.  I have never
>>> had depth perception and in fact have fallen down stairs.  No one even
>>> thought I needed a cane and I continued to survive in the sighted world
>>> as a second class citizen.
>>>
>>> When I finally took the step to get some mobility training, the
>>> instructor told me 'you have more vision than you realize' because I
>>> could walk in a straight line.  It was in the winter so I could tell the
>>> difference between snow and pavement.  Now grass and pavement is a
>>> little harder.  I can see the confusion of a person with a drivers
>>> licence using a guide dog, but perhaps there is more to it than that
>>> and/or maybe they shouldn't even have had a license.
>>>
>>> It is very depressing that people with partial sight are slapped down by
>>> people with less visual acuity.  Sometimes it is even people who have
>>> been in my shoes who devalidate me and my needs.  Maybe I can see well
>>> one day and not another.  Maybe Ican "see" in areas I travel alot as
>>> long as there are no obstacles.  Maybe it depends on the daylight,
>>> sunlight, season and stress level.
>>>
>>> And if people with partial sight don't need guide dogs, maybe we don't
>>> need to learnBraille either.
>>>
>>> That said, I'm learning Braille and am glad to hear GDF and other
>>> schools are open to people with remaining vision based on the individual
>>> situation.
>>>
>>> I don't object to your concerns and question of people with partial
>>> sight using guide dogs Robert.  However, the way you went about it was
>>> generalized and not very diplomatic.
>>>
>>> Brenda
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> '
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/30/2012 5:44 PM, Tami Kinney wrote:
>>>> Robert,
>>>>
>>>> Well, I have RP and have been legally blind since 1999. Had it not
>>>> been for my spouse, whom I finally had to just divorce for several
>>>> reasons, I would have applied for a guide then, once I learned cane
>>>> travel, which I ended up having to learn on my own. However, by the
>>>> numbers I did qualify. I needed a cane, thus I needed a dog.
>>>>
>>>> The one program that I did follow through with, just to see what
>>>> happened, decided somehow that I have really great vision and can read
>>>> street signs. Therefore, I do not need a guide dog, according to them.
>>>>
>>>> Um... First of all, that was certainly not true by 2006. Also, the
>>>> ability to read street signs -- even if I had, in fact, possessed that
>>>> ability -- seems to me pretty, um, something. Think about it.
>>>>
>>>> Still, I had decided by that point that I wasn't that interested in
>>>> putting up with that sort of attitude, and some things in my life had
>>>> changed. So I got a poodle puppy and trained her myself. She is now
>>>> 5.5 and an excellent working guide. I do not think of her as
>>>> self-trained but as owner-trained.
>>>>
>>>> I think it is fair to say that for me and my guide, the percentage of
>>>> program trained dogs over owner-trained dogs that cause problems for
>>>> us is, well, one hundred percent. I have met and worked around other
>>>> owner-trained dogs, but there has been zero problem because of either
>>>> dog. Every guide dog that has caused difficulty with my owner-trained
>>>> guide is program-trained by a certified trainer.
>>>>
>>>> When my dog was very young, she did have difficulty adjusting to being
>>>> around other dogs, so she did cause problems. We worked on that and
>>>> now she does not. The problems she had when she was young began at her
>>>> first exposure to other working guides. A program-trained dog growled
>>>> and lunged at her outside an elevator, then again in the elevator. A
>>>> short while later, that same dog repeated the behavior because we were
>>>> unable to avoid passing the pair. Another program-trained dog at that
>>>> same short event brought his handler close enough that the man would
>>>> have tripped over her if she hadn't jumped out of the way. He nearly
>>>> tripped over me another time walking by where I was sitting.
>>>>
>>>> So, she was pretty uptight around other guides for quite a while, and
>>>> it took a lot of work with her to keep her from being ruined, since I
>>>> won't have a working guide that is that reactive to other guides. So
>>>> those first program-trained guides we met nearly cost me all the
>>>> training I'd put into my dog. They caused me and my owner-trained pup
>>>> way more difficulty than any pet dog has. We made it through, and
>>>> Mitzi is fine around other guide and service dogs now, but it took a
>>>> lot of work for both of us to get there. For a long time, I thought we
>>>> wouldn't.
>>>>
>>>> She has saved my life many times. Not anyone else did that by giving
>>>> her to me already trained. Just her, following the training I gave her
>>>> and her own brains and good judgment.
>>>>
>>>> As a partial, I hear all the time when it comes to resources of all
>>>> types that my really great vision means I don't need whatever it is
>>>> and that by just asking I am somehow taking it from "blind people who
>>>> need it."
>>>>
>>>> This has cost me well into the 6 figures by now.
>>>>
>>>> I don't have really great vision, not by any vision exam I have had
>>>> really since before I crossed that magical numerical line that
>>>> qualified me as legally blind.
>>>>
>>>> It sounds to me, though, like you think I shouldn't get a guide dog
>>>> because I don't really need one. Or adaptive technology to return to
>>>> my vocation, I suppose.
>>>>
>>>> Is there anything else I don't deserve in your opinion? /evil grin/
>>>>
>>>> I understand that it can be difficult to rectify differences. However,
>>>> it was the guide dog program that told you you just wanted the dog for
>>>> a pet. It was not a partial or an owner-trainer.
>>>>
>>>> Tami
>>>>
>>>> On 01/30/2012 01:46 PM, Harris.Robert at epamail.epa.gov wrote:
>>>>> Hi Marion:
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife has RP so I know all that.  I can only say how I felt when a
>>>>> school in 1980 or 1981 had the balls to tell me I wanted the dog as a
>>>>> pet made me feel. I also think (I'm an old fox with a lot of years and
>>>>> experience now) that I saw a dog guide user with a day time drivers
>>>>> license.  I'm not buying any of that but I'm just me:0).  When Pilot
>>>>> took me on at 19 they basically saved my life. I'm a fast traveler and
>>>>> was a top notch cane user who taught others that were blind, but, I
>>>>> went
>>>>> to many many different places and knew in my heart that I needed four
>>>>> legged help.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can tell you many instances where "self trained dogs caused me a lot
>>>>> of problems, but, I think it is possible to train your own dog, if
>>>>> your
>>>>> a certified trainer.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From:    "Marion Gwizdala"<blind411 at verizon.net>
>>>>> To:    "NAGDU Mailing List,    the National Association of Guide
>>>>>                Dog Users"<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Date:    01/30/2012 03:16 PM
>>>>> Subject:    Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>> Sent by:    nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Robert,
>>>>>        Individuals with retinitis pigmentosa may have fairly good
>>>>> acuity
>>>>> but
>>>>> their fields of vision may be seriously compromised. narrow fields of
>>>>> vision
>>>>> can distort depth perception so that individuals may not realize they
>>>>> are
>>>>> standing at the top of a flight of stairs or at the threshhold of a
>>>>> loading
>>>>> dock. Furthermore, since the periphery of the retina contains a high
>>>>> concentration of rods cells that are responsible for sight in dimly
>>>>> lit
>>>>> areas and the ability to see moving objects, those affected by this
>>>>> condition benefit from using a dog to travel safely under those
>>>>> conditions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From:<Harris.Robert at epamail.epa.gov>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 2:30 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure why somebody with very high vision would need a dog
>>>>>> guide
>>>>>> and have said so in school.  Somebody and bodies were in training
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> me and could see faces, identify cars and see the surrounding area
>>>>>> pretty clearly for well over 50 yards? I'm an honest person and
>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>> hesitate to ask why the hell they were getting a dog.  Answers off
>>>>> list
>>>>>> only but I was not happy&    hope they didn't get a dog guide.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are waiting lists for people who are very low partials&/or
>>>>>> totally blind to get a dog guide so its not just a cut and dry "get a
>>>>>> dog". there is a evaluation&    process for reasons mentioned above.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hope I don't come across as brash but I have very strong feelings
>>>>> about
>>>>>> this topic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: "Larry D. Keeler"<lkeeler at comcast.net>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide
>>>>>>               Dog Users"<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Date: 01/30/2012 12:58 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>>> Sent by: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good choice!  For me it was a case of the more the merrier!.
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Melissa Pasron"<fuzzylucky2021 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 10:47 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you for giving me a different perspective. I am really trying
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> weigh the options before I make a decision. My current deciding
>>>>> factor
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> that I currently have a pet dog and I don't know if I'll be ready to
>>>>>> do
>>>>>>> all the grooming and caring for two dogs. Not to mention if a guide
>>>>>> dog is
>>>>>>> right for me at the current moment. I think I'll just sit on the
>>>>> issue
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> a while and think about it. I don't want to go rushing into a
>>>>> decision
>>>>>>> without giving it a lot of thought.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jan 30, 2012, at 9:37 AM, "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)"
>>>>>>> <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>    wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In making your decision, think about what you most want to do when
>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> return home from being out someplace. Do you want to spend time
>>>>>> grooming
>>>>>>>> and caring for a dog, and doing it every single day, or would you
>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>> do something else.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I worked two dogs. Then I had my daughter and found that all I
>>>>> wanted
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> do was hang out with her, especially after being at work all day.
>>>>>> Taking
>>>>>>>> care of the dog became more of a chore then something I enjoyed.
>>>>> And,
>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>> times it became very difficult to balance, baby wanted to eat or be
>>>>>> held,
>>>>>>>> dog needed to be brushed, you can't do both at the same time. And,
>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>> an obvious answer may be "get help with the baby" I enjoyed and
>>>>> still
>>>>>>>> enjoy taking care of her.
>>>>>>>> Think about how you'll feel when the dog wakes you up to go potty,
>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>> you be okay with it or will it mentally wear you out as "one more
>>>>>> thing I
>>>>>>>> have to do".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What are your hobbies and are they comptible with a guide dog? You
>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>> always leave a cane, and a cane is easy to replace. Not true with a
>>>>>> dog.
>>>>>>>> I have had a couple access issues. I can tell you that when that
>>>>>> happens,
>>>>>>>> the very first thought that goes through your head is "This really
>>>>>> f***s
>>>>>>>> up my plans".
>>>>>>>> I'll add that I like dogs. They are neat animals, and I think have
>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>> to teach us.  At times I miss having one.  On a day when the sun is
>>>>>>>> shinging, and it's 65 degrees, I'd love to take a guide dog and
>>>>>>>> walk
>>>>>> on a
>>>>>>>> bike path, as the feeling of you being in synch with a dog is
>>>>>> amazing.
>>>>>>>> Right now, I can't deal with the 24/7 nature of a guide dog.  I
>>>>> can't
>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> it with a pet dog either.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You can bring a guide dog anywhere, but you also need to plan on
>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> with food, water, rest, appropriate supervision, things like that.
>>>>>> It's
>>>>>>>> difficult to "just stay a bit longer" when you didn't plan on it
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> don't have food for your dog.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, the answer is that it really depends. I offer my perspective
>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>> this list is made up of people who are currently using dogs and who
>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>> doing it.  It would be useful for you and others to have a
>>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>> perspective.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>> Behalf Of melissa padron
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:35 PM
>>>>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am new to this list so I though I would just start off with an
>>>>>>>> introduction and then some questions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, first of all, my name is Melissa and although I am not a
>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>> user I am a cane user. I'm in college pursuing a degree in
>>>>> psychology
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> I will be moving back to my hometown once I graduate. I'm
>>>>>>>> considered
>>>>>>>> legally blind, so I do have vision.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Because of the condition I have, I was not taught to use a cane
>>>>> until
>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>> senior year of high school. I actually had to fight in order to get
>>>>>> cane
>>>>>>>> lessons, but since then, I just about take my cane everywhere with
>>>>>> me. It
>>>>>>>> helps a lot more than using my vision and stressing my eyes....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now, some questions:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am not considering getting a guide dog now but I do want to keep
>>>>> it
>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> an option if I decide that it would help me in my travels. So my
>>>>>> question
>>>>>>>> is, what was ultimately you deciding factor in getting a guide dog?
>>>>>>>> What are some advantages and disadvantages in using a guide dog?
>>>>>>>> For those of you who have vision, did you encounter problems with
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> guide dog schools saying that a guide dog would not benefit you
>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>> you have "too much" vision?
>>>>>>>> Ultimately, this is my greatest fear. I'm scared of encountering
>>>>>>>> criticism by guide dog schools and "blindness professionals" about
>>>>>>>> whether a guide dog would benefit me or not. A lot of people with
>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>> condition function well without a cane or a dog so would this be
>>>>> used
>>>>>>>> against me if I were to apply?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am looking forward to hearing your responses and advice.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Melissa
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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