[nagdu] Introduction and Questions

Wed Feb 1 17:38:57 UTC 2012

Rebecca,

That was well put. Even as my vision goes and I know experientially in 
some sense what blindness is like, I try to imagine the frame of 
reference of those who have never seen and realize that I don't have a 
clue. Of course, my formerly visual frame of reference still gets in my 
way at times, because it's a neurological thing as well as psychological 
or practical. /smile/ I can't imagine where sighted people are coming 
from anymore, either, which is kinda funny. I'm shocked they know where 
the light switch is when they walk in a room. Ooooh! A miracle! /lol/

But I think you've hit on a good point: It's not about the vision or 
lack thereof itself... It's about how we each adapt according to our 
actual experience. When I focus on that, especially when I'm interacting 
with others with a non visual frame of reference, making it about 
vision, what we see or don't, can get confusing. Whereas, focusing on 
the activity or locating whatever it is, comparing notes maybe or just 
learning to communicate about the environment, is pretty fun. /smile/

I actually find it easier going around with people who have been total 
or nearly total a long time or for life. Probably because they are 
settled in that frame of reference and are less likely to worry at it. 
/smile/ Whew!

I like the expression another partial used: I can see just enough to get 
myself in trouble. This is so totally true of me, and it's a relief as I 
lose vision because I cause less trouble for myself. Most of the time. 
/lol/ It's still weird when I lose a bunch, because that causes changes 
in the brain as it rewires or readjusts on a deep level. So, more 
trouble for me caused by me. /lol/

What has been really interesting to observe is how much Mitzi, then 
Daisy and now, slowly, puppy Zay figure out what's going on during those 
losses and the new adjustments... Sometimes it really seems like Mitzi 
figures it out before I do. I discovered early on in her training, when 
she was just beginning to do easy guiding walks, that using my beginner 
guide dog made things incredibly easy during changes in overall vision 
or those changes in light and dark. I could manage them with my cane, 
better and better with practice, but still! There's a neurological 
factor to those changes for a formerly visual brain, so walking under a 
tree from bright sunlight causes me a bit of a kerpfuffle internally 
that affects even my communication with my cane. The dog, on the other 
hand, just keeps on going, and I was able to use that forward impulsion 
to reset my balance into and out of darkness and light. Made me a better 
cane user, too. Who knew?

So, then, the blanket assertion that partials like me don't need guide 
dogs the way blind people like you do would appear to me to be 
completely untrue in my case. The dog actually makes me safer, makes 
travel for me easier and more fluid, less stressful, etc., etc. because 
of the constant adjustment in what hits my visual cortex through my 
swiss cheese retinae... Hm...

Of course, that does not mean I need a guide dog more than you do. It 
means that we both benefit from the use of our choice of mobility tool. 
/smile/

Tami

Tami

On 02/01/2012 05:49 AM, Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) wrote:
>          I have no vision. Nobody has ever explained to me the differences in visual acuity and what that may mean until this discussion.
> For example, until I read Brenda's post, I had no clue that telling the difference between grass and pavement was harder, because when you do it with acane, it's a piece of cake.
>
> I understand from reading these posts how lighting can affect vision.
> I don't understand the stress or the "my vision changes from day-to-day" comments.
> I simply haven't had them explained in a manner that makes sense to me.
>
> I've encountered people with partial vision in my guide dog classes who can see a dime, in the next town, in the next county, and nobody ever explained that they may not see a bus right in front of them. So I'm left with a WTF?? Reaction.
>
> Add to that the fuzzy language of "My vision changes from day to day" and I'm totally confused.
>
> Nobody has explained what the visual acuity numbers mean either. So hearing those numbers without the tie-in to something tangible is Greek to me.
>
> It would be useful to me when I encounter someone with partial vision for them to tell me what they need/want me to do, not what they can or can't see, how that changes.  It's interesting to know, and I would like to know it, but practically speaking it means more to me if you say "I can't see the appropriate place to sit, can you take me to it"
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brenda
> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 7:31 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>
> Well said Tami and marion.
>
> In addition, not only people with RP have trouble seeing.  I have never
> had depth perception and in fact have fallen down stairs.  No one even
> thought I needed a cane and I continued to survive in the sighted world
> as a second class citizen.
>
> When I finally took the step to get some mobility training, the
> instructor told me 'you have more vision than you realize' because I
> could walk in a straight line.  It was in the winter so I could tell the
> difference between snow and pavement.  Now grass and pavement is a
> little harder.  I can see the confusion of a person with a drivers
> licence using a guide dog, but perhaps there is more to it than that
> and/or maybe they shouldn't even have had a license.
>
> It is very depressing that people with partial sight are slapped down by
> people with less visual acuity.  Sometimes it is even people who have
> been in my shoes who devalidate me and my needs.  Maybe I can see well
> one day and not another.  Maybe Ican "see" in areas I travel alot as
> long as there are no obstacles.  Maybe it depends on the daylight,
> sunlight, season and stress level.
>
> And if people with partial sight don't need guide dogs, maybe we don't
> need to learnBraille either.
>
> That said, I'm learning Braille and am glad to hear GDF and other
> schools are open to people with remaining vision based on the individual
> situation.
>
> I don't object to your concerns and question of people with partial
> sight using guide dogs Robert.  However, the way you went about it was
> generalized and not very diplomatic.
>
> Brenda
>
>
>
>
> '
>
>
>
>
>
> On 1/30/2012 5:44 PM, Tami Kinney wrote:
>> Robert,
>>
>> Well, I have RP and have been legally blind since 1999. Had it not
>> been for my spouse, whom I finally had to just divorce for several
>> reasons, I would have applied for a guide then, once I learned cane
>> travel, which I ended up having to learn on my own. However, by the
>> numbers I did qualify. I needed a cane, thus I needed a dog.
>>
>> The one program that I did follow through with, just to see what
>> happened, decided somehow that I have really great vision and can read
>> street signs. Therefore, I do not need a guide dog, according to them.
>>
>> Um... First of all, that was certainly not true by 2006. Also, the
>> ability to read street signs -- even if I had, in fact, possessed that
>> ability -- seems to me pretty, um, something. Think about it.
>>
>> Still, I had decided by that point that I wasn't that interested in
>> putting up with that sort of attitude, and some things in my life had
>> changed. So I got a poodle puppy and trained her myself. She is now
>> 5.5 and an excellent working guide. I do not think of her as
>> self-trained but as owner-trained.
>>
>> I think it is fair to say that for me and my guide, the percentage of
>> program trained dogs over owner-trained dogs that cause problems for
>> us is, well, one hundred percent. I have met and worked around other
>> owner-trained dogs, but there has been zero problem because of either
>> dog. Every guide dog that has caused difficulty with my owner-trained
>> guide is program-trained by a certified trainer.
>>
>> When my dog was very young, she did have difficulty adjusting to being
>> around other dogs, so she did cause problems. We worked on that and
>> now she does not. The problems she had when she was young began at her
>> first exposure to other working guides. A program-trained dog growled
>> and lunged at her outside an elevator, then again in the elevator. A
>> short while later, that same dog repeated the behavior because we were
>> unable to avoid passing the pair. Another program-trained dog at that
>> same short event brought his handler close enough that the man would
>> have tripped over her if she hadn't jumped out of the way. He nearly
>> tripped over me another time walking by where I was sitting.
>>
>> So, she was pretty uptight around other guides for quite a while, and
>> it took a lot of work with her to keep her from being ruined, since I
>> won't have a working guide that is that reactive to other guides. So
>> those first program-trained guides we met nearly cost me all the
>> training I'd put into my dog. They caused me and my owner-trained pup
>> way more difficulty than any pet dog has. We made it through, and
>> Mitzi is fine around other guide and service dogs now, but it took a
>> lot of work for both of us to get there. For a long time, I thought we
>> wouldn't.
>>
>> She has saved my life many times. Not anyone else did that by giving
>> her to me already trained. Just her, following the training I gave her
>> and her own brains and good judgment.
>>
>> As a partial, I hear all the time when it comes to resources of all
>> types that my really great vision means I don't need whatever it is
>> and that by just asking I am somehow taking it from "blind people who
>> need it."
>>
>> This has cost me well into the 6 figures by now.
>>
>> I don't have really great vision, not by any vision exam I have had
>> really since before I crossed that magical numerical line that
>> qualified me as legally blind.
>>
>> It sounds to me, though, like you think I shouldn't get a guide dog
>> because I don't really need one. Or adaptive technology to return to
>> my vocation, I suppose.
>>
>> Is there anything else I don't deserve in your opinion? /evil grin/
>>
>> I understand that it can be difficult to rectify differences. However,
>> it was the guide dog program that told you you just wanted the dog for
>> a pet. It was not a partial or an owner-trainer.
>>
>> Tami
>>
>> On 01/30/2012 01:46 PM, Harris.Robert at epamail.epa.gov wrote:
>>> Hi Marion:
>>>
>>> My wife has RP so I know all that.  I can only say how I felt when a
>>> school in 1980 or 1981 had the balls to tell me I wanted the dog as a
>>> pet made me feel. I also think (I'm an old fox with a lot of years and
>>> experience now) that I saw a dog guide user with a day time drivers
>>> license.  I'm not buying any of that but I'm just me:0).  When Pilot
>>> took me on at 19 they basically saved my life. I'm a fast traveler and
>>> was a top notch cane user who taught others that were blind, but, I went
>>> to many many different places and knew in my heart that I needed four
>>> legged help.
>>>
>>> I can tell you many instances where "self trained dogs caused me a lot
>>> of problems, but, I think it is possible to train your own dog, if your
>>> a certified trainer.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From:    "Marion Gwizdala"<blind411 at verizon.net>
>>> To:    "NAGDU Mailing List,    the National Association of Guide
>>>               Dog Users"<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Date:    01/30/2012 03:16 PM
>>> Subject:    Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>> Sent by:    nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Robert,
>>>       Individuals with retinitis pigmentosa may have fairly good acuity
>>> but
>>> their fields of vision may be seriously compromised. narrow fields of
>>> vision
>>> can distort depth perception so that individuals may not realize they
>>> are
>>> standing at the top of a flight of stairs or at the threshhold of a
>>> loading
>>> dock. Furthermore, since the periphery of the retina contains a high
>>> concentration of rods cells that are responsible for sight in dimly lit
>>> areas and the ability to see moving objects, those affected by this
>>> condition benefit from using a dog to travel safely under those
>>> conditions.
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From:<Harris.Robert at epamail.epa.gov>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 2:30 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm not sure why somebody with very high vision would need a dog guide
>>>> and have said so in school.  Somebody and bodies were in training with
>>>> me and could see faces, identify cars and see the surrounding area
>>>> pretty clearly for well over 50 yards? I'm an honest person and didn't
>>>> hesitate to ask why the hell they were getting a dog.  Answers off
>>> list
>>>> only but I was not happy&   hope they didn't get a dog guide.
>>>>
>>>> There are waiting lists for people who are very low partials&/or
>>>> totally blind to get a dog guide so its not just a cut and dry "get a
>>>> dog". there is a evaluation&   process for reasons mentioned above.
>>>>
>>>> Hope I don't come across as brash but I have very strong feelings
>>> about
>>>> this topic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: "Larry D. Keeler"<lkeeler at comcast.net>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide
>>>>              Dog Users"<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Date: 01/30/2012 12:58 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>> Sent by: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good choice!  For me it was a case of the more the merrier!.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Melissa Pasron"<fuzzylucky2021 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 10:47 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for giving me a different perspective. I am really trying
>>> to
>>>>
>>>>> weigh the options before I make a decision. My current deciding
>>> factor
>>>> is
>>>>> that I currently have a pet dog and I don't know if I'll be ready to
>>>> do
>>>>> all the grooming and caring for two dogs. Not to mention if a guide
>>>> dog is
>>>>> right for me at the current moment. I think I'll just sit on the
>>> issue
>>>> for
>>>>> a while and think about it. I don't want to go rushing into a
>>> decision
>>>>
>>>>> without giving it a lot of thought.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 30, 2012, at 9:37 AM, "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)"
>>>>> <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>   wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In making your decision, think about what you most want to do when
>>>> you
>>>>>> return home from being out someplace. Do you want to spend time
>>>> grooming
>>>>>> and caring for a dog, and doing it every single day, or would you
>>>> rather
>>>>>> do something else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I worked two dogs. Then I had my daughter and found that all I
>>> wanted
>>>> to
>>>>>> do was hang out with her, especially after being at work all day.
>>>> Taking
>>>>>> care of the dog became more of a chore then something I enjoyed.
>>> And,
>>>> at
>>>>>> times it became very difficult to balance, baby wanted to eat or be
>>>> held,
>>>>>> dog needed to be brushed, you can't do both at the same time. And,
>>>> while
>>>>>> an obvious answer may be "get help with the baby" I enjoyed and
>>> still
>>>>
>>>>>> enjoy taking care of her.
>>>>>> Think about how you'll feel when the dog wakes you up to go potty,
>>>> will
>>>>>> you be okay with it or will it mentally wear you out as "one more
>>>> thing I
>>>>>> have to do".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What are your hobbies and are they comptible with a guide dog? You
>>>> can
>>>>>> always leave a cane, and a cane is easy to replace. Not true with a
>>>> dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have had a couple access issues. I can tell you that when that
>>>> happens,
>>>>>> the very first thought that goes through your head is "This really
>>>> f***s
>>>>>> up my plans".
>>>>>> I'll add that I like dogs. They are neat animals, and I think have
>>>> much
>>>>>> to teach us.  At times I miss having one.  On a day when the sun is
>>>>>> shinging, and it's 65 degrees, I'd love to take a guide dog and walk
>>>> on a
>>>>>> bike path, as the feeling of you being in synch with a dog is
>>>> amazing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Right now, I can't deal with the 24/7 nature of a guide dog.  I
>>> can't
>>>> do
>>>>>> it with a pet dog either.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can bring a guide dog anywhere, but you also need to plan on
>>> that
>>>>
>>>>>> with food, water, rest, appropriate supervision, things like that.
>>>> It's
>>>>>> difficult to "just stay a bit longer" when you didn't plan on it and
>>>>>> don't have food for your dog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, the answer is that it really depends. I offer my perspective
>>>> because
>>>>>> this list is made up of people who are currently using dogs and who
>>>> like
>>>>>> doing it.  It would be useful for you and others to have a different
>>>>>> perspective.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf Of melissa padron
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:35 PM
>>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am new to this list so I though I would just start off with an
>>>>>> introduction and then some questions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, first of all, my name is Melissa and although I am not a guide
>>>> dog
>>>>>> user I am a cane user. I'm in college pursuing a degree in
>>> psychology
>>>> and
>>>>>> I will be moving back to my hometown once I graduate. I'm considered
>>>>>> legally blind, so I do have vision.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because of the condition I have, I was not taught to use a cane
>>> until
>>>> my
>>>>>> senior year of high school. I actually had to fight in order to get
>>>> cane
>>>>>> lessons, but since then, I just about take my cane everywhere with
>>>> me. It
>>>>>> helps a lot more than using my vision and stressing my eyes....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, some questions:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am not considering getting a guide dog now but I do want to keep
>>> it
>>>> as
>>>>>> an option if I decide that it would help me in my travels. So my
>>>> question
>>>>>> is, what was ultimately you deciding factor in getting a guide dog?
>>>>>> What are some advantages and disadvantages in using a guide dog?
>>>>>> For those of you who have vision, did you encounter problems with
>>> the
>>>>
>>>>>> guide dog schools saying that a guide dog would not benefit you
>>>> because
>>>>>> you have "too much" vision?
>>>>>> Ultimately, this is my greatest fear. I'm scared of encountering
>>>>>> criticism by guide dog schools and "blindness professionals" about
>>>>>> whether a guide dog would benefit me or not. A lot of people with my
>>>>>> condition function well without a cane or a dog so would this be
>>> used
>>>>
>>>>>> against me if I were to apply?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am looking forward to hearing your responses and advice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Melissa
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>>>
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