[nagdu] "Some vision" was: Introduction and Questions
Larry D. Keeler
lkeeler at comcast.net
Thu Feb 2 03:31:20 UTC 2012
But, it sometimes happens!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lyn Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 5:01 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] "Some vision" was: Introduction and Questions
> This whole thing about the "partials" haveing more priviledges than the
> "totals" is a classic case of marginalization behavior common to minority
> groups. It happens among people of color, people with other disabilities,
> racial or tribal groups, and LGBT folks. So it raises it's head among the
> blind as well.
>
> I was introduced to this as a young adult when I wwent to college with
> several blind folks who had gone to blind schools. Having gone to public
> and CAtholic schools, I never saw this dynamic. I was usually the only
> blind kid in the school!
>
> I have to say that I don't see this dynamic on the lists but when the
> subject comes up, I have seen the pain of this dynamic in the totally
> blind who have been victims of some partials picking on them. This is
> another form of bullying as I see it. I have received bullying because I
> was blind and LGBT by the sighted straight kids at school. I know what it
> is like and I call people on this crap when I encounter it.
>
> It is good to have this discussion because it allows healing in those who
> have been at the receiving end of this inequality among the blind in the
> past. It shows the partials where they were hurtful to others if they
> engaged in this behavior while at blind school.
>
> These tactics are just another example of the "divide and conquer"
> mentality that keeps us all fighting and oppressed in our society.
>
> All my life I have had good friends who were partials and totals alike and
> I never gave it a thought to think any less of a totally blind person than
> I would think that way towards anyone else.
>
> The NFB is right on about referring to ourselves as blind whether or not
> we have any sight or not. It has always been a negative thing to be blind
> and the NFB has made it respectable to be blind. To own it and proudly
> own our entire selves. I like that. I am partially sighted and I proudly
> call myself blind. Good discussion!
>
> Lyn and Landon
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brenda" <bjnite at windstream.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 12:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] "Some vision" was: Introduction and Questions
>
>
>> And so the circle goes round and round. This topic is good because
>> people with partial sight and people who are blind get the chance to
>> understand where each other is coming from so we can be more united to
>> fight for the things we all need in the sighted world.
>>
>>
>> As a person with 20/200 vision, I went to a camp for the blind in 4th and
>> 5th grades. The first year was fine, but the second year all the blind
>> campers were put in the cars for the time-distance road rally. then us
>> partials were slotted in cars with blind campers. The blind campers got
>> to read the clues while us partials just sat in the back of a car for two
>> hours. One time my two blind friends asked a boy who was partial who the
>> prettiest of us three girls was? Of course, the others did not have coke
>> bottle lenses that made their eyes look like monster eyes so they were
>> considered pretty and I was not. Then there was the ski guide who told
>> me I didn't need anyone to call my turns because I could follow the guide
>> in front of me who was already out of view. Then there was a man with
>> near light-dark vision who told me "someday you'll go dark.".. After
>> experiences like these, I took my 20/200 vision and made my way in the
>> sighted world.
>>
>> As I have needed to adapt to some vision loss, I have sought out lists
>> where my interests are addressed. The NFB has the most lists that meet
>> my needs. Email lists are a very important way for the NFB to help
>> people. I can be who I am as a person with dwindling partial vision and
>> learn how others have dealt with things. This NAGDU list has allowed me
>> to come in contact with other people with partial sight with guide dogs
>> and also that I need to think about how I express my visual situation to
>> those with no vision.
>>
>> Brenda
>> Brenda
>>
>> On 2/1/2012 12:35 PM, Larry D. Keeler wrote:
>>> Well, I went to Michigan School for the Blind in the 70's. Sometimes
>>> those partials used there sight to gert special priveledges, find better
>>> ways to pick on us totals and in general seemed to get prefferential
>>> treatment. This wasn't supposed to be done but I think for some, it was
>>> sort of ingrained. Not that us totals couldn't cope, but partials were
>>> sometimes put in charge of us and the like and some totals resented it
>>> quite a bit! Also, some partials resented us maybe because they could
>>> lose there sight and be just like us! Fortunately, the attitude didn't
>>> always become extreme and most of us knew about it but it didn't stop us
>>> from mingling together.
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark J. Cadigan" <kramc11 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 11:24 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] "Some vision" was: Introduction and Questions
>>>
>>>
>>>> This is one of the reasons I loved BLIND Inc. everyone was on a level
>>>> playing field. If you had any vision at all, including light
>>>> perception, they gave you sleep shades. All the skills were taught with
>>>> full occlusion, so that you could do it regardless of how your vision
>>>> was cooperating.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brenda" <bjnite at windstream.net>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 11:12 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] "Some vision" was: Introduction and Questions
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Maybe it is a regional thing because I have always felt as a person
>>>>> with partial sight that agencies and activity groups for the visually
>>>>> impaired (blind and partial) favored the blind. It was not as much of
>>>>> a feelgood to help someone with low vision. Then there is the
>>>>> jealousy issue among people with varying degrees of vision. I think
>>>>> at guide dog schools and other situations where blind and partial are
>>>>> together we need to work with each other and and have a compassionate
>>>>> attitude toward eachother.
>>>>> Brenda
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/1/2012 10:54 AM, Tracy Carcione wrote:
>>>>>> I have noticed an opposite attitude to that which Julie J describes.
>>>>>> Rather than "This guy can see some, so he doesn't need any help",
>>>>>> sometimes it's "It's so much easier to show this guy what to do
>>>>>> because he
>>>>>> can see a bit that we don't much want to bother with those totally
>>>>>> blind
>>>>>> people. They're just so slow to get it." Or something like that.
>>>>>> Like,
>>>>>> we can show the guys with "some vision" videos and stuff, and they
>>>>>> get it
>>>>>> so much faster than those darn totals.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also had the feeling from my last trainer that she expected me to
>>>>>> know
>>>>>> about things I didn't know about. As if I should know there were
>>>>>> bushes
>>>>>> coming up Ben would try to sniff. How would I know? True, we'd
>>>>>> passed
>>>>>> that way before, but I'd been paying attention to other things. I
>>>>>> guess I
>>>>>> was supposed to use my amazing psychic powers to know what was up
>>>>>> ahead.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also once had a classmate tell me "You're pretty graceful, for a
>>>>>> total."
>>>>>> Gee thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> None of these attitudes are helpful. I'd rather live and let live.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just for the record, I'm totally blind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you Julie.
>>>>>>> I'm wondering if there should be a lecture on this issue at the
>>>>>>> guide dog
>>>>>>> schools, just so people like me "get it".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Another thing I've noticed is that I have encountered some people
>>>>>>> with low
>>>>>>> vision that act as if their vision is more important then any data I
>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>> give them. For example, I was working in pairs with a lady who had
>>>>>>> "some
>>>>>>> vision" by her words. We were about to cross a street, and I told
>>>>>>> her a
>>>>>>> car was coming. She said "I don't see anything" right as the car
>>>>>>> zoomed
>>>>>>> by. She said it in this tone that indicated she had to be right and
>>>>>>> I had
>>>>>>> to be wrong.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To her credit, she did thank me, though I'm still not sure she
>>>>>>> understood
>>>>>>> her attitude.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Combine this with the "Sometimes my vision works, sometimes it
>>>>>>> doesn't,
>>>>>>> but I won't tell anybody what's going on" and it is incredibly
>>>>>>> frustrating.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And, I think I'd experience the same confusion if my husband said "I
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> days when it's easier for me to take out the trash, and days when it
>>>>>>> isn't, you guess which days and guess as to why this might be
>>>>>>> happening"
>>>>>>> Add to that the attitude of "I'm a man and I take the trash out sooo
>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>> better then you... but only when these mystical conditions are
>>>>>>> right" and
>>>>>>> this make more sense.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's not my place to decide who needs a dog. It does impact me when
>>>>>>> I have
>>>>>>> to deal with someone under conditions that have not been clearly
>>>>>>> explained
>>>>>>> to me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>> Of Julie J.
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 9:40 AM
>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rebeka,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is very interesting to me. I wonder if this not understanding
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> differences in vision might contribute to some of the intolerance of
>>>>>>> people with partial vision getting access to services and resources?
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> don't mean from you, personally, of course. Just that lack of
>>>>>>> understanding sometimes leads some people to come to incorrect
>>>>>>> conclusions or make judgments.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I talk about stress and vision, I'm talking about mental stress
>>>>>>> from trying to look everywhere at once or try to see things that are
>>>>>>> just outside of my ability to see them. There is also actual stress
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> strain to my eyes when I try to do to much visually. I'd say this
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> similar to someone trying to lift something that is really to heavy.
>>>>>>> Your muscles might feel like burning, you might shake a bit from the
>>>>>>> strain and later you will be sore. The symptoms are different for
>>>>>>> visual strain, but the effective outcome is about the same.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For me first learning how to use a cane and then later a guide dog,
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> meant that I don't need to be nervous that I'm going to miss
>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>> visually. The dog will do that for me, more reliably than I ever
>>>>>>> could. If I'm having a good vision day, meaning that my head
>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>> thumping, my eyes aren't watering, the sun isn't shining and it's
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> the first thing in the morning or late in the day, then I can use my
>>>>>>> vision in useful ways.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I was denied the use of a guide dog, never got cane travel
>>>>>>> instruction or the other alternative skills I've learned, I don't
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> I'd be able to leave the house alone. I wouldn't have a job,
>>>>>>> friends,
>>>>>>> volunteer in the community or even be happy. I'd be a prisoner in
>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>> own home with no hope of parole. I think I might lose my mind.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2/1/2012 7:49 AM, Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) wrote:
>>>>>>>> I have no vision. Nobody has ever explained to me the
>>>>>>>> differences in visual acuity and what that may mean until this
>>>>>>>> discussion.
>>>>>>>> For example, until I read Brenda's post, I had no clue that telling
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> difference between grass and pavement was harder, because when you
>>>>>>>> do it
>>>>>>>> with acane, it's a piece of cake.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I understand from reading these posts how lighting can affect
>>>>>>>> vision.
>>>>>>>> I don't understand the stress or the "my vision changes from
>>>>>>>> day-to-day"
>>>>>>>> comments.
>>>>>>>> I simply haven't had them explained in a manner that makes sense to
>>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've encountered people with partial vision in my guide dog classes
>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>> can see a dime, in the next town, in the next county, and nobody
>>>>>>>> ever
>>>>>>>> explained that they may not see a bus right in front of them. So
>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>> left with a WTF?? Reaction.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Add to that the fuzzy language of "My vision changes from day to
>>>>>>>> day"
>>>>>>>> and I'm totally confused.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nobody has explained what the visual acuity numbers mean either. So
>>>>>>>> hearing those numbers without the tie-in to something tangible is
>>>>>>>> Greek
>>>>>>>> to me.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It would be useful to me when I encounter someone with partial
>>>>>>>> vision
>>>>>>>> for them to tell me what they need/want me to do, not what they can
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> can't see, how that changes. It's interesting to know, and I would
>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>> to know it, but practically speaking it means more to me if you say
>>>>>>>> "I
>>>>>>>> can't see the appropriate place to sit, can you take me to it"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Brenda
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 7:31 PM
>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well said Tami and marion.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In addition, not only people with RP have trouble seeing. I have
>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>> had depth perception and in fact have fallen down stairs. No one
>>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>>> thought I needed a cane and I continued to survive in the sighted
>>>>>>>> world
>>>>>>>> as a second class citizen.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When I finally took the step to get some mobility training, the
>>>>>>>> instructor told me 'you have more vision than you realize' because
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> could walk in a straight line. It was in the winter so I could
>>>>>>>> tell the
>>>>>>>> difference between snow and pavement. Now grass and pavement is a
>>>>>>>> little harder. I can see the confusion of a person with a drivers
>>>>>>>> licence using a guide dog, but perhaps there is more to it than
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> and/or maybe they shouldn't even have had a license.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is very depressing that people with partial sight are slapped
>>>>>>>> down by
>>>>>>>> people with less visual acuity. Sometimes it is even people who
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> been in my shoes who devalidate me and my needs. Maybe I can see
>>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>>> one day and not another. Maybe Ican "see" in areas I travel alot
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> long as there are no obstacles. Maybe it depends on the daylight,
>>>>>>>> sunlight, season and stress level.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And if people with partial sight don't need guide dogs, maybe we
>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>> need to learnBraille either.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That said, I'm learning Braille and am glad to hear GDF and other
>>>>>>>> schools are open to people with remaining vision based on the
>>>>>>>> individual
>>>>>>>> situation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't object to your concerns and question of people with partial
>>>>>>>> sight using guide dogs Robert. However, the way you went about it
>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>> generalized and not very diplomatic.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Brenda
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> '
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 1/30/2012 5:44 PM, Tami Kinney wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Robert,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well, I have RP and have been legally blind since 1999. Had it not
>>>>>>>>> been for my spouse, whom I finally had to just divorce for several
>>>>>>>>> reasons, I would have applied for a guide then, once I learned
>>>>>>>>> cane
>>>>>>>>> travel, which I ended up having to learn on my own. However, by
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> numbers I did qualify. I needed a cane, thus I needed a dog.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The one program that I did follow through with, just to see what
>>>>>>>>> happened, decided somehow that I have really great vision and can
>>>>>>>>> read
>>>>>>>>> street signs. Therefore, I do not need a guide dog, according to
>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Um... First of all, that was certainly not true by 2006. Also, the
>>>>>>>>> ability to read street signs -- even if I had, in fact, possessed
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> ability -- seems to me pretty, um, something. Think about it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Still, I had decided by that point that I wasn't that interested
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> putting up with that sort of attitude, and some things in my life
>>>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>>>> changed. So I got a poodle puppy and trained her myself. She is
>>>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>>>> 5.5 and an excellent working guide. I do not think of her as
>>>>>>>>> self-trained but as owner-trained.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think it is fair to say that for me and my guide, the percentage
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> program trained dogs over owner-trained dogs that cause problems
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> us is, well, one hundred percent. I have met and worked around
>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>> owner-trained dogs, but there has been zero problem because of
>>>>>>>>> either
>>>>>>>>> dog. Every guide dog that has caused difficulty with my
>>>>>>>>> owner-trained
>>>>>>>>> guide is program-trained by a certified trainer.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When my dog was very young, she did have difficulty adjusting to
>>>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>>> around other dogs, so she did cause problems. We worked on that
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> now she does not. The problems she had when she was young began at
>>>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>>>> first exposure to other working guides. A program-trained dog
>>>>>>>>> growled
>>>>>>>>> and lunged at her outside an elevator, then again in the elevator.
>>>>>>>>> A
>>>>>>>>> short while later, that same dog repeated the behavior because we
>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>> unable to avoid passing the pair. Another program-trained dog at
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> same short event brought his handler close enough that the man
>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>> have tripped over her if she hadn't jumped out of the way. He
>>>>>>>>> nearly
>>>>>>>>> tripped over me another time walking by where I was sitting.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So, she was pretty uptight around other guides for quite a while,
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> it took a lot of work with her to keep her from being ruined,
>>>>>>>>> since I
>>>>>>>>> won't have a working guide that is that reactive to other guides.
>>>>>>>>> So
>>>>>>>>> those first program-trained guides we met nearly cost me all the
>>>>>>>>> training I'd put into my dog. They caused me and my owner-trained
>>>>>>>>> pup
>>>>>>>>> way more difficulty than any pet dog has. We made it through, and
>>>>>>>>> Mitzi is fine around other guide and service dogs now, but it took
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> lot of work for both of us to get there. For a long time, I
>>>>>>>>> thought we
>>>>>>>>> wouldn't.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> She has saved my life many times. Not anyone else did that by
>>>>>>>>> giving
>>>>>>>>> her to me already trained. Just her, following the training I gave
>>>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>>>> and her own brains and good judgment.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As a partial, I hear all the time when it comes to resources of
>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>> types that my really great vision means I don't need whatever it
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> and that by just asking I am somehow taking it from "blind people
>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>> need it."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This has cost me well into the 6 figures by now.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't have really great vision, not by any vision exam I have
>>>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>>>> really since before I crossed that magical numerical line that
>>>>>>>>> qualified me as legally blind.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It sounds to me, though, like you think I shouldn't get a guide
>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>> because I don't really need one. Or adaptive technology to return
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> my vocation, I suppose.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is there anything else I don't deserve in your opinion? /evil
>>>>>>>>> grin/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I understand that it can be difficult to rectify differences.
>>>>>>>>> However,
>>>>>>>>> it was the guide dog program that told you you just wanted the dog
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> a pet. It was not a partial or an owner-trainer.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tami
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 01/30/2012 01:46 PM, Harris.Robert at epamail.epa.gov wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Marion:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My wife has RP so I know all that. I can only say how I felt
>>>>>>>>>> when a
>>>>>>>>>> school in 1980 or 1981 had the balls to tell me I wanted the dog
>>>>>>>>>> as a
>>>>>>>>>> pet made me feel. I also think (I'm an old fox with a lot of
>>>>>>>>>> years and
>>>>>>>>>> experience now) that I saw a dog guide user with a day time
>>>>>>>>>> drivers
>>>>>>>>>> license. I'm not buying any of that but I'm just me:0). When
>>>>>>>>>> Pilot
>>>>>>>>>> took me on at 19 they basically saved my life. I'm a fast
>>>>>>>>>> traveler and
>>>>>>>>>> was a top notch cane user who taught others that were blind, but,
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> went
>>>>>>>>>> to many many different places and knew in my heart that I needed
>>>>>>>>>> four
>>>>>>>>>> legged help.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I can tell you many instances where "self trained dogs caused me
>>>>>>>>>> a lot
>>>>>>>>>> of problems, but, I think it is possible to train your own dog,
>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>> a certified trainer.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Marion Gwizdala"<blind411 at verizon.net>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide
>>>>>>>>>> Dog Users"<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Date: 01/30/2012 03:16 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>>>>>>> Sent by: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Robert,
>>>>>>>>>> Individuals with retinitis pigmentosa may have fairly good
>>>>>>>>>> acuity
>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>> their fields of vision may be seriously compromised. narrow
>>>>>>>>>> fields of
>>>>>>>>>> vision
>>>>>>>>>> can distort depth perception so that individuals may not realize
>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>> standing at the top of a flight of stairs or at the threshhold of
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> loading
>>>>>>>>>> dock. Furthermore, since the periphery of the retina contains a
>>>>>>>>>> high
>>>>>>>>>> concentration of rods cells that are responsible for sight in
>>>>>>>>>> dimly
>>>>>>>>>> lit
>>>>>>>>>> areas and the ability to see moving objects, those affected by
>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>> condition benefit from using a dog to travel safely under those
>>>>>>>>>> conditions.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From:<Harris.Robert at epamail.epa.gov>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 2:30 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure why somebody with very high vision would need a dog
>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>> and have said so in school. Somebody and bodies were in
>>>>>>>>>>> training
>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>> me and could see faces, identify cars and see the surrounding
>>>>>>>>>>> area
>>>>>>>>>>> pretty clearly for well over 50 yards? I'm an honest person and
>>>>>>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>>>>>>> hesitate to ask why the hell they were getting a dog. Answers
>>>>>>>>>>> off
>>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>>> only but I was not happy& hope they didn't get a dog guide.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There are waiting lists for people who are very low partials&/or
>>>>>>>>>>> totally blind to get a dog guide so its not just a cut and dry
>>>>>>>>>>> "get a
>>>>>>>>>>> dog". there is a evaluation& process for reasons mentioned
>>>>>>>>>>> above.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hope I don't come across as brash but I have very strong
>>>>>>>>>>> feelings
>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>> this topic.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Larry D. Keeler"<lkeeler at comcast.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide
>>>>>>>>>>> Dog Users"<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Date: 01/30/2012 12:58 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent by: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Good choice! For me it was a case of the more the merrier!.
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Melissa Pasron"<fuzzylucky2021 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 10:47 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for giving me a different perspective. I am really
>>>>>>>>>>>> trying
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> weigh the options before I make a decision. My current deciding
>>>>>>>>>> factor
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>> that I currently have a pet dog and I don't know if I'll be
>>>>>>>>>>>> ready to
>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>> all the grooming and caring for two dogs. Not to mention if a
>>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>> dog is
>>>>>>>>>>>> right for me at the current moment. I think I'll just sit on
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> issue
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> a while and think about it. I don't want to go rushing into a
>>>>>>>>>> decision
>>>>>>>>>>>> without giving it a lot of thought.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 30, 2012, at 9:37 AM, "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In making your decision, think about what you most want to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> return home from being out someplace. Do you want to spend
>>>>>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>>>> grooming
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and caring for a dog, and doing it every single day, or would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>>>>>>> do something else.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I worked two dogs. Then I had my daughter and found that all I
>>>>>>>>>> wanted
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> do was hang out with her, especially after being at work all
>>>>>>>>>>>>> day.
>>>>>>>>>>> Taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>> care of the dog became more of a chore then something I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> enjoyed.
>>>>>>>>>> And,
>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> times it became very difficult to balance, baby wanted to eat
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or be
>>>>>>>>>>> held,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog needed to be brushed, you can't do both at the same time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And,
>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>>>> an obvious answer may be "get help with the baby" I enjoyed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>>>>>> enjoy taking care of her.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Think about how you'll feel when the dog wakes you up to go
>>>>>>>>>>>>> potty,
>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you be okay with it or will it mentally wear you out as "one
>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>> thing I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to do".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What are your hobbies and are they comptible with a guide dog?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> always leave a cane, and a cane is easy to replace. Not true
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with a
>>>>>>>>>>> dog.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have had a couple access issues. I can tell you that when
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> happens,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the very first thought that goes through your head is "This
>>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>> f***s
>>>>>>>>>>>>> up my plans".
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll add that I like dogs. They are neat animals, and I think
>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to teach us. At times I miss having one. On a day when the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sun is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> shinging, and it's 65 degrees, I'd love to take a guide dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> walk
>>>>>>>>>>> on a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bike path, as the feeling of you being in synch with a dog is
>>>>>>>>>>> amazing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right now, I can't deal with the 24/7 nature of a guide dog.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> can't
>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it with a pet dog either.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can bring a guide dog anywhere, but you also need to plan
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with food, water, rest, appropriate supervision, things like
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that.
>>>>>>>>>>> It's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> difficult to "just stay a bit longer" when you didn't plan on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't have food for your dog.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, the answer is that it really depends. I offer my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> perspective
>>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this list is made up of people who are currently using dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and who
>>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing it. It would be useful for you and others to have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>>>>>>> perspective.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of melissa padron
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:35 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am new to this list so I though I would just start off with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>>>> introduction and then some questions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, first of all, my name is Melissa and although I am not a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>> user I am a cane user. I'm in college pursuing a degree in
>>>>>>>>>> psychology
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I will be moving back to my hometown once I graduate. I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>> considered
>>>>>>>>>>>>> legally blind, so I do have vision.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because of the condition I have, I was not taught to use a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cane
>>>>>>>>>> until
>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> senior year of high school. I actually had to fight in order
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get
>>>>>>>>>>> cane
>>>>>>>>>>>>> lessons, but since then, I just about take my cane everywhere
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>> me. It
>>>>>>>>>>>>> helps a lot more than using my vision and stressing my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> eyes....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now, some questions:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not considering getting a guide dog now but I do want to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> keep
>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> an option if I decide that it would help me in my travels. So
>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>> question
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is, what was ultimately you deciding factor in getting a guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What are some advantages and disadvantages in using a guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those of you who have vision, did you encounter problems
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> guide dog schools saying that a guide dog would not benefit
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you have "too much" vision?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ultimately, this is my greatest fear. I'm scared of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> encountering
>>>>>>>>>>>>> criticism by guide dog schools and "blindness professionals"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>> whether a guide dog would benefit me or not. A lot of people
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> condition function well without a cane or a dog so would this
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>>>>>>> against me if I were to apply?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am looking forward to hearing your responses and advice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Melissa
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rebecca.pickrell%40tasc.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any attachments or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> files
>>>>>>>>>>>>> transmitted with it (collectively, the "Message") are intended
>>>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the addressee and may contain information that is privileged,
>>>>>>>>>>> proprietary
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and/or prohibited from disclosure by law or contract. If you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> intended recipient: (a) please do not read, copy or retransmit
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Message; (b) permanently delete and/or destroy all electronic
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>>>>>>>>>>> hard
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.net
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/bjnite%40windstream.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rebecca.pickrell%40tasc.com
>>>>>>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any attachments or files
>>>>>>>> transmitted with it (collectively, the "Message") are intended only
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> the addressee and may contain information that is privileged,
>>>>>>>> proprietary and/or prohibited from disclosure by law or contract.
>>>>>>>> If you
>>>>>>>> are not the intended recipient: (a) please do not read, copy or
>>>>>>>> retransmit the Message; (b) permanently delete and/or destroy all
>>>>>>>> electronic and hard copies of the Message; (c) notify us by return
>>>>>>>> email; and (d) you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
>>>>>>>> distribution or copying of the Message is strictly prohibited.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
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>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>> nagdu:
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>> nagdu:
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
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