[nagdu] Introduction and Questions

Fri Feb 3 17:23:19 UTC 2012

Hi Tami,
I commend your ability to owner-train Mitzi, and I'm sorry to hear you ran 
into some program-trained dogs whose handlers were clearly not keeping up 
with initial training.  That kind of thing just grinds my gears.  For me, 
regardless of whether one owner-trains a dog or acquires one from a program, 
training is an ongoing thing.  One can't just go through initial training 
and put a period and move on.  I wish all people would stop and smell the 
roses a bit.  Teamship and partnership take work, and if we get too lazy, 
the dog will too.
Best,
Nat and Liam Joshua

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tami Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions

> Robert,
>
> Well, I have RP and have been legally blind since 1999. Had it not been 
> for my spouse, whom I finally had to just divorce for several reasons, I 
> would have applied for a guide then, once I learned cane travel, which I 
> ended up having to learn on my own. However, by the numbers I did qualify. 
> I needed a cane, thus I needed a dog.
>
> The one program that I did follow through with, just to see what happened, 
> decided somehow that I have really great vision and can read street signs. 
> Therefore, I do not need a guide dog, according to them.
>
> Um... First of all, that was certainly not true by 2006. Also, the ability 
> to read street signs -- even if I had, in fact, possessed that ability --  
> seems to me pretty, um, something. Think about it.
>
> Still, I had decided by that point that I wasn't that interested in 
> putting up with that sort of attitude, and some things in my life had 
> changed. So I got a poodle puppy and trained her myself. She is now 5.5 
> and an excellent working guide. I do not think of her as self-trained but 
> as owner-trained.
>
> I think it is fair to say that for me and my guide, the percentage of 
> program trained dogs over owner-trained dogs that cause problems for us 
> is, well, one hundred percent. I have met and worked around other 
> owner-trained dogs, but there has been zero problem because of either dog. 
> Every guide dog that has caused difficulty with my owner-trained guide is 
> program-trained by a certified trainer.
>
> When my dog was very young, she did have difficulty adjusting to being 
> around other dogs, so she did cause problems. We worked on that and now 
> she does not. The problems she had when she was young began at her first 
> exposure to other working guides. A program-trained dog growled and lunged 
> at her outside an elevator, then again in the elevator. A short while 
> later, that same dog repeated the behavior because we were unable to avoid 
> passing the pair. Another program-trained dog at that same short event 
> brought his handler close enough that the man would have tripped over her 
> if she hadn't jumped out of the way. He nearly tripped over me another 
> time walking by where I was sitting.
>
> So, she was pretty uptight around other guides for quite a while, and it 
> took a lot of work with her to keep her from being ruined, since I won't 
> have a working guide that is that reactive to other guides. So those first 
> program-trained guides we met nearly cost me all the training I'd put into 
> my dog. They caused me and my owner-trained pup way more difficulty than 
> any pet dog has. We made it through, and Mitzi is fine around other guide 
> and service dogs now, but it took a lot of work for both of us to get 
> there. For a long time, I thought we wouldn't.
>
> She has saved my life many times. Not anyone else did that by giving her 
> to me already trained. Just her, following the training I gave her and her 
> own brains and good judgment.
>
> As a partial, I hear all the time when it comes to resources of all types 
> that my really great vision means I don't need whatever it is and that by 
> just asking I am somehow taking it from "blind people who need it."
>
> This has cost me well into the 6 figures by now.
>
> I don't have really great vision, not by any vision exam I have had really 
> since before I crossed that magical numerical line that qualified me as 
> legally blind.
>
> It sounds to me, though, like you think I shouldn't get a guide dog 
> because I don't really need one. Or adaptive technology to return to my 
> vocation, I suppose.
>
> Is there anything else I don't deserve in your opinion? /evil grin/
>
> I understand that it can be difficult to rectify differences. However, it 
> was the guide dog program that told you you just wanted the dog for a pet. 
> It was not a partial or an owner-trainer.
>
> Tami
>
> On 01/30/2012 01:46 PM, Harris.Robert at epamail.epa.gov wrote:
>> Hi Marion:
>>
>> My wife has RP so I know all that.  I can only say how I felt when a
>> school in 1980 or 1981 had the balls to tell me I wanted the dog as a
>> pet made me feel. I also think (I'm an old fox with a lot of years and
>> experience now) that I saw a dog guide user with a day time drivers
>> license.  I'm not buying any of that but I'm just me:0).  When Pilot
>> took me on at 19 they basically saved my life. I'm a fast traveler and
>> was a top notch cane user who taught others that were blind, but, I went
>> to many many different places and knew in my heart that I needed four
>> legged help.
>>
>> I can tell you many instances where "self trained dogs caused me a lot
>> of problems, but, I think it is possible to train your own dog, if your
>> a certified trainer.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: "Marion Gwizdala"<blind411 at verizon.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide
>>              Dog Users"<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Date: 01/30/2012 03:16 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>> Sent by: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>
>>
>>
>> Robert,
>>      Individuals with retinitis pigmentosa may have fairly good acuity
>> but
>> their fields of vision may be seriously compromised. narrow fields of
>> vision
>> can distort depth perception so that individuals may not realize they
>> are
>> standing at the top of a flight of stairs or at the threshhold of a
>> loading
>> dock. Furthermore, since the periphery of the retina contains a high
>> concentration of rods cells that are responsible for sight in dimly lit
>> areas and the ability to see moving objects, those affected by this
>> condition benefit from using a dog to travel safely under those
>> conditions.
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From:<Harris.Robert at epamail.epa.gov>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 2:30 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>
>>
>>> I'm not sure why somebody with very high vision would need a dog guide
>>> and have said so in school.  Somebody and bodies were in training with
>>> me and could see faces, identify cars and see the surrounding area
>>> pretty clearly for well over 50 yards? I'm an honest person and didn't
>>> hesitate to ask why the hell they were getting a dog.  Answers off
>> list
>>> only but I was not happy&  hope they didn't get a dog guide.
>>>
>>> There are waiting lists for people who are very low partials&/or
>>> totally blind to get a dog guide so its not just a cut and dry "get a
>>> dog". there is a evaluation&  process for reasons mentioned above.
>>>
>>> Hope I don't come across as brash but I have very strong feelings
>> about
>>> this topic.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: "Larry D. Keeler"<lkeeler at comcast.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide
>>>             Dog Users"<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Date: 01/30/2012 12:58 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>> Sent by: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Good choice!  For me it was a case of the more the merrier!.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Melissa Pasron"<fuzzylucky2021 at sbcglobal.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 10:47 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>
>>>
>>>> Thank you for giving me a different perspective. I am really trying
>> to
>>>
>>>> weigh the options before I make a decision. My current deciding
>> factor
>>> is
>>>> that I currently have a pet dog and I don't know if I'll be ready to
>>> do
>>>> all the grooming and caring for two dogs. Not to mention if a guide
>>> dog is
>>>> right for me at the current moment. I think I'll just sit on the
>> issue
>>> for
>>>> a while and think about it. I don't want to go rushing into a
>> decision
>>>
>>>> without giving it a lot of thought.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 30, 2012, at 9:37 AM, "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)"
>>>> <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In making your decision, think about what you most want to do when
>>> you
>>>>> return home from being out someplace. Do you want to spend time
>>> grooming
>>>>> and caring for a dog, and doing it every single day, or would you
>>> rather
>>>>> do something else.
>>>>>
>>>>> I worked two dogs. Then I had my daughter and found that all I
>> wanted
>>> to
>>>>> do was hang out with her, especially after being at work all day.
>>> Taking
>>>>> care of the dog became more of a chore then something I enjoyed.
>> And,
>>> at
>>>>> times it became very difficult to balance, baby wanted to eat or be
>>> held,
>>>>> dog needed to be brushed, you can't do both at the same time. And,
>>> while
>>>>> an obvious answer may be "get help with the baby" I enjoyed and
>> still
>>>
>>>>> enjoy taking care of her.
>>>>> Think about how you'll feel when the dog wakes you up to go potty,
>>> will
>>>>> you be okay with it or will it mentally wear you out as "one more
>>> thing I
>>>>> have to do".
>>>>>
>>>>> What are your hobbies and are they comptible with a guide dog? You
>>> can
>>>>> always leave a cane, and a cane is easy to replace. Not true with a
>>> dog.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have had a couple access issues. I can tell you that when that
>>> happens,
>>>>> the very first thought that goes through your head is "This really
>>> f***s
>>>>> up my plans".
>>>>> I'll add that I like dogs. They are neat animals, and I think have
>>> much
>>>>> to teach us.  At times I miss having one.  On a day when the sun is
>>>>> shinging, and it's 65 degrees, I'd love to take a guide dog and walk
>>> on a
>>>>> bike path, as the feeling of you being in synch with a dog is
>>> amazing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Right now, I can't deal with the 24/7 nature of a guide dog.  I
>> can't
>>> do
>>>>> it with a pet dog either.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can bring a guide dog anywhere, but you also need to plan on
>> that
>>>
>>>>> with food, water, rest, appropriate supervision, things like that.
>>> It's
>>>>> difficult to "just stay a bit longer" when you didn't plan on it and
>>>>> don't have food for your dog.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, the answer is that it really depends. I offer my perspective
>>> because
>>>>> this list is made up of people who are currently using dogs and who
>>> like
>>>>> doing it.  It would be useful for you and others to have a different
>>>>> perspective.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf Of melissa padron
>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:35 PM
>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am new to this list so I though I would just start off with an
>>>>> introduction and then some questions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, first of all, my name is Melissa and although I am not a guide
>>> dog
>>>>> user I am a cane user. I'm in college pursuing a degree in
>> psychology
>>> and
>>>>> I will be moving back to my hometown once I graduate. I'm considered
>>>>> legally blind, so I do have vision.
>>>>>
>>>>> Because of the condition I have, I was not taught to use a cane
>> until
>>> my
>>>>> senior year of high school. I actually had to fight in order to get
>>> cane
>>>>> lessons, but since then, I just about take my cane everywhere with
>>> me. It
>>>>> helps a lot more than using my vision and stressing my eyes....
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, some questions:
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not considering getting a guide dog now but I do want to keep
>> it
>>> as
>>>>> an option if I decide that it would help me in my travels. So my
>>> question
>>>>> is, what was ultimately you deciding factor in getting a guide dog?
>>>>> What are some advantages and disadvantages in using a guide dog?
>>>>> For those of you who have vision, did you encounter problems with
>> the
>>>
>>>>> guide dog schools saying that a guide dog would not benefit you
>>> because
>>>>> you have "too much" vision?
>>>>> Ultimately, this is my greatest fear. I'm scared of encountering
>>>>> criticism by guide dog schools and "blindness professionals" about
>>>>> whether a guide dog would benefit me or not. A lot of people with my
>>>>> condition function well without a cane or a dog so would this be
>> used
>>>
>>>>> against me if I were to apply?
>>>>>
>>>>> I am looking forward to hearing your responses and advice.
>>>>>
>>>>> Melissa
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> nagdu:
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>>>
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>>
>>>
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