[nagdu] cooperation vs. force

Wed Feb 29 19:30:24 UTC 2012

Julie J, I laugh.  Ben's motto is the same as the Borg:  You will adapt to
service us.  Resistance is futile.
He hasn't been on tie-down, or in a crate, for years.  I used to tie him
while Echo was eating, so he wouldn't take her food, being a dominant guy.
 But even that's not necessary anymore, though mostly because we have to
sit with the old gal and hold the bowl so she can reach everything.  Oops,
adapting again to serve the dog.
But I'm not letting my dog off leash in an unfenced area.  I live in an
urban area, and it would be too dangerous.  He is free to run around a
fenced yard as much as he likes.  He's free to chase squirrels, sniff
around, whatever he likes.  Echo got skunked in our yard once.  It
happens.  He's also free to play with other dogs, if they both feel like
it.
If I'm visiting a wide-open place, I still worry that he might run far
enough to not be sure how to get back, or run up on the road.  And I
couldn't live with myself if he got hurt and it was my fault for doing
something I know is unsafe.
By the same token, I will insist that he keep his head and feet out of the
way on the bus and not sprawl himself out into the aisle.
I do much prefer the dog to be willing to do what I ask.  It makes life
better for both of us.  But I will do things to keep him safe, and I don't
apologize for it. Not that I think you're asking me to.
Tracy

> Cindy,
>
> I think the crux of the issue I'm trying to get to is freedom for the
> dog.  Crates are a wonderful thing.  Leashes are too.  Rules are
> important for all of us.  But what bothers me or at least what I find
> myself coming back to time and again is this idea of micromanaging our
> dogs to the point that they have no freedom, no choice and no ability to
> just be.
>
> The idea that I am doing something for the good of the dog gives me
> shivers sometimes.  Sure taking away an electrical cord the dog is
> chewing on is for the good of the dog. Feeding a nutritious high quality
> food is for the good of the dog.  However there are loads and loads of
> things we lump into this category of "good for the dog", but how do we
> know that is really true?   It brings me back to institutions for
> disabled people because they were for our own good.  The days when it
> was contributory negligence for a blind person to be out alone because
> it was for our own good.  Sure people and dogs aren't the same, but I
> can't help wondering about some of the things I do, telling myself it is
> for the good of the dog.
>
> Monty is a very high energy dog.  He loves running, sniffing and chasing
> small furry things.  I knew he would love to run free out near our farm
> pond.  I also knew the risk of letting him run off leash.  I struggled
> with it for a long time before letting him run free.  I was so nervous
> the first time.  Is he running for the road?  Is he going near the
> pond?  Is he going to get into a scrap with a small furry animal that
> doesn't want to be chased?   Is he okay?  And yes, even though Monty has
> an amazing recall there was a part of me that feared him running off
> into the sunset in search of something better.
>
> In the end it all worked out.  He is fine off leash.  He loves the
> experience and has never gotten himself into trouble of any variety.
> The benefit to him to run off leash has far outweighed the risk of
> letting him do so, at least to me. However for a long time I told myself
> that it was for his own good that I didn't let him or other dogs run off
> leash. When I finally did unclip his leash and let him go, after the
> fear abated, I realized our relationship and just made a giant leap
> forward.  I have no words to express what it means to have a dog that
> will run and play and be totally free, but will come back to me in a
> moment's notice not because I told him to, but because he genuinely
> wants to be with me of his own free will.
>
> I'm not saying that everyone should go forth and let their dogs off
> leash to run amuck.  Belle is a good example of this being a sure recipe
> for a disaster of mega proportions.  I'm just saying that for me, I have
> a deep need in my soul to have a relationship with my dog that is based
> on freedom and choice.  I don't want to ever be in a position to have to
> force my dog to do anything.  I want them to trust and respect me so
> that I am able to ask them to do what I am wanting and they choose
> whether or not to do it.  If they refuse to do what I'm asking I want to
> know why.  Are they confused?  Not capable of doing the thing?  Telling
> me it's a stupid idea? Afraid? or something else.
>
> Anyhow, I'm prone to thinking too much and this is probably another
> instance where I have gotten lost in my own pondering. *smile*
>
> Julie
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2/29/2012 11:03 AM, Cindy Ray wrote:
>> I would say that many, though certainly not all, trainers will say that
>> to keep them confined when you aren't there is as much for their
>> protection as for your own well being. I suspect, too, that this depends
>> on the dogs. Our dogs are confined at nights and are confined when we
>> are gone; they expect it, though go to their kennels when asked to do so
>> and are praised for having done it. I would like to find room for one
>> more crate in order that I didn't tie fisher. We try not to leave them
>> for hugely long periods of time, and they are only required do be there
>> at night or during the day if we are both gone. I feel they have to be
>> corrected when they have done something they should not, but more than
>> that they must be hugely praised when they have done the right thing.
>> Maybe I am misunderstanding what you have said, but I would say that we
>> have a great relationship with all of these dogs.
>>
>> Cindy
>>
>> On Feb 29, 2012, at 10:58 AM, Julie J. wrote:
>>
>>> All the recent messages on this list and others concerning corrections,
>>> tie downs, muzzles etc. have me thinking.  Although I'm not absolutely
>>> opposed to corrections, confinement, muzzles or any other sort of
>>> punitive measure that comes to mind, it does make me wonder how the use
>>> of these affect the relationship with the dog.  To me the relationship
>>> I have with my dog is the most important thing.  If that is built from
>>> trust, cooperation and mutual respect then everything else will be
>>> fine.  I want a dog to want to be with me and work with me not out of
>>> fear of a punishment, but because he genuinely enjoys my company.  I
>>> want him to feel empowered to think for himself and to try new things.
>>> I feel that too much use of punishment based interaction will hamper
>>> the ability for him to do these things.  I want him to learn self
>>> control so he can manage his own impulses out of a place of  confidence
>>> in his own choices rather than me micromanaging his life.
>>>
>>> I'm not explaining well.   I guess what I'm trying to say is that I
>>> think freedom of choice on the part of the dog is an important thing.
>>> Too often I have fallen into the trap of micromanaging too much of my
>>> dog's lives, not allowing them any amount of freedom.  I regret that.
>>> It is something that I have learned with Monty.  To truly trust a dog
>>> you have to give them opportunities to mess up so they can show you
>>> that they won't.
>>>
>>> Julie
>>>
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