[nagdu] Introduction and Questions

Tami Kinney tamara.8024 at comcast.net
Mon Jan 30 22:44:44 UTC 2012 

Robert,

Well, I have RP and have been legally blind since 1999. Had it not been 
for my spouse, whom I finally had to just divorce for several reasons, I 
would have applied for a guide then, once I learned cane travel, which I 
ended up having to learn on my own. However, by the numbers I did 
qualify. I needed a cane, thus I needed a dog.

The one program that I did follow through with, just to see what 
happened, decided somehow that I have really great vision and can read 
street signs. Therefore, I do not need a guide dog, according to them.

Um... First of all, that was certainly not true by 2006. Also, the 
ability to read street signs -- even if I had, in fact, possessed that 
ability -- seems to me pretty, um, something. Think about it.

Still, I had decided by that point that I wasn't that interested in 
putting up with that sort of attitude, and some things in my life had 
changed. So I got a poodle puppy and trained her myself. She is now 5.5 
and an excellent working guide. I do not think of her as self-trained 
but as owner-trained.

I think it is fair to say that for me and my guide, the percentage of 
program trained dogs over owner-trained dogs that cause problems for us 
is, well, one hundred percent. I have met and worked around other 
owner-trained dogs, but there has been zero problem because of either 
dog. Every guide dog that has caused difficulty with my owner-trained 
guide is program-trained by a certified trainer.

When my dog was very young, she did have difficulty adjusting to being 
around other dogs, so she did cause problems. We worked on that and now 
she does not. The problems she had when she was young began at her first 
exposure to other working guides. A program-trained dog growled and 
lunged at her outside an elevator, then again in the elevator. A short 
while later, that same dog repeated the behavior because we were unable 
to avoid passing the pair. Another program-trained dog at that same 
short event brought his handler close enough that the man would have 
tripped over her if she hadn't jumped out of the way. He nearly tripped 
over me another time walking by where I was sitting.

So, she was pretty uptight around other guides for quite a while, and it 
took a lot of work with her to keep her from being ruined, since I won't 
have a working guide that is that reactive to other guides. So those 
first program-trained guides we met nearly cost me all the training I'd 
put into my dog. They caused me and my owner-trained pup way more 
difficulty than any pet dog has. We made it through, and Mitzi is fine 
around other guide and service dogs now, but it took a lot of work for 
both of us to get there. For a long time, I thought we wouldn't.

She has saved my life many times. Not anyone else did that by giving her 
to me already trained. Just her, following the training I gave her and 
her own brains and good judgment.

As a partial, I hear all the time when it comes to resources of all 
types that my really great vision means I don't need whatever it is and 
that by just asking I am somehow taking it from "blind people who need it."

This has cost me well into the 6 figures by now.

I don't have really great vision, not by any vision exam I have had 
really since before I crossed that magical numerical line that qualified 
me as legally blind.

It sounds to me, though, like you think I shouldn't get a guide dog 
because I don't really need one. Or adaptive technology to return to my 
vocation, I suppose.

Is there anything else I don't deserve in your opinion? /evil grin/

I understand that it can be difficult to rectify differences. However, 
it was the guide dog program that told you you just wanted the dog for a 
pet. It was not a partial or an owner-trainer.

Tami

On 01/30/2012 01:46 PM, Harris.Robert at epamail.epa.gov wrote:
> Hi Marion:
>
> My wife has RP so I know all that.  I can only say how I felt when a
> school in 1980 or 1981 had the balls to tell me I wanted the dog as a
> pet made me feel. I also think (I'm an old fox with a lot of years and
> experience now) that I saw a dog guide user with a day time drivers
> license.  I'm not buying any of that but I'm just me:0).  When Pilot
> took me on at 19 they basically saved my life. I'm a fast traveler and
> was a top notch cane user who taught others that were blind, but, I went
> to many many different places and knew in my heart that I needed four
> legged help.
>
> I can tell you many instances where "self trained dogs caused me a lot
> of problems, but, I think it is possible to train your own dog, if your
> a certified trainer.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From:	"Marion Gwizdala"<blind411 at verizon.net>
> To:	"NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide
>              Dog Users"<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Date:	01/30/2012 03:16 PM
> Subject:	Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
> Sent by:	nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>
>
>
> Robert,
>      Individuals with retinitis pigmentosa may have fairly good acuity
> but
> their fields of vision may be seriously compromised. narrow fields of
> vision
> can distort depth perception so that individuals may not realize they
> are
> standing at the top of a flight of stairs or at the threshhold of a
> loading
> dock. Furthermore, since the periphery of the retina contains a high
> concentration of rods cells that are responsible for sight in dimly lit
> areas and the ability to see moving objects, those affected by this
> condition benefit from using a dog to travel safely under those
> conditions.
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:<Harris.Robert at epamail.epa.gov>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 2:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>
>
>> I'm not sure why somebody with very high vision would need a dog guide
>> and have said so in school.  Somebody and bodies were in training with
>> me and could see faces, identify cars and see the surrounding area
>> pretty clearly for well over 50 yards? I'm an honest person and didn't
>> hesitate to ask why the hell they were getting a dog.  Answers off
> list
>> only but I was not happy&  hope they didn't get a dog guide.
>>
>> There are waiting lists for people who are very low partials&/or
>> totally blind to get a dog guide so its not just a cut and dry "get a
>> dog". there is a evaluation&  process for reasons mentioned above.
>>
>> Hope I don't come across as brash but I have very strong feelings
> about
>> this topic.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: "Larry D. Keeler"<lkeeler at comcast.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide
>>             Dog Users"<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Date: 01/30/2012 12:58 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>> Sent by: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>
>>
>>
>> Good choice!  For me it was a case of the more the merrier!.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Melissa Pasron"<fuzzylucky2021 at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 10:47 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>
>>
>>> Thank you for giving me a different perspective. I am really trying
> to
>>
>>> weigh the options before I make a decision. My current deciding
> factor
>> is
>>> that I currently have a pet dog and I don't know if I'll be ready to
>> do
>>> all the grooming and caring for two dogs. Not to mention if a guide
>> dog is
>>> right for me at the current moment. I think I'll just sit on the
> issue
>> for
>>> a while and think about it. I don't want to go rushing into a
> decision
>>
>>> without giving it a lot of thought.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Jan 30, 2012, at 9:37 AM, "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)"
>>> <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> In making your decision, think about what you most want to do when
>> you
>>>> return home from being out someplace. Do you want to spend time
>> grooming
>>>> and caring for a dog, and doing it every single day, or would you
>> rather
>>>> do something else.
>>>>
>>>> I worked two dogs. Then I had my daughter and found that all I
> wanted
>> to
>>>> do was hang out with her, especially after being at work all day.
>> Taking
>>>> care of the dog became more of a chore then something I enjoyed.
> And,
>> at
>>>> times it became very difficult to balance, baby wanted to eat or be
>> held,
>>>> dog needed to be brushed, you can't do both at the same time. And,
>> while
>>>> an obvious answer may be "get help with the baby" I enjoyed and
> still
>>
>>>> enjoy taking care of her.
>>>> Think about how you'll feel when the dog wakes you up to go potty,
>> will
>>>> you be okay with it or will it mentally wear you out as "one more
>> thing I
>>>> have to do".
>>>>
>>>> What are your hobbies and are they comptible with a guide dog? You
>> can
>>>> always leave a cane, and a cane is easy to replace. Not true with a
>> dog.
>>>>
>>>> I have had a couple access issues. I can tell you that when that
>> happens,
>>>> the very first thought that goes through your head is "This really
>> f***s
>>>> up my plans".
>>>> I'll add that I like dogs. They are neat animals, and I think have
>> much
>>>> to teach us.  At times I miss having one.  On a day when the sun is
>>>> shinging, and it's 65 degrees, I'd love to take a guide dog and walk
>> on a
>>>> bike path, as the feeling of you being in synch with a dog is
>> amazing.
>>>>
>>>> Right now, I can't deal with the 24/7 nature of a guide dog.  I
> can't
>> do
>>>> it with a pet dog either.
>>>>
>>>> You can bring a guide dog anywhere, but you also need to plan on
> that
>>
>>>> with food, water, rest, appropriate supervision, things like that.
>> It's
>>>> difficult to "just stay a bit longer" when you didn't plan on it and
>>>> don't have food for your dog.
>>>>
>>>> So, the answer is that it really depends. I offer my perspective
>> because
>>>> this list is made up of people who are currently using dogs and who
>> like
>>>> doing it.  It would be useful for you and others to have a different
>>>> perspective.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of melissa padron
>>>> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:35 PM
>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am new to this list so I though I would just start off with an
>>>> introduction and then some questions.
>>>>
>>>> Well, first of all, my name is Melissa and although I am not a guide
>> dog
>>>> user I am a cane user. I'm in college pursuing a degree in
> psychology
>> and
>>>> I will be moving back to my hometown once I graduate. I'm considered
>>>> legally blind, so I do have vision.
>>>>
>>>> Because of the condition I have, I was not taught to use a cane
> until
>> my
>>>> senior year of high school. I actually had to fight in order to get
>> cane
>>>> lessons, but since then, I just about take my cane everywhere with
>> me. It
>>>> helps a lot more than using my vision and stressing my eyes....
>>>>
>>>> Now, some questions:
>>>>
>>>> I am not considering getting a guide dog now but I do want to keep
> it
>> as
>>>> an option if I decide that it would help me in my travels. So my
>> question
>>>> is, what was ultimately you deciding factor in getting a guide dog?
>>>> What are some advantages and disadvantages in using a guide dog?
>>>> For those of you who have vision, did you encounter problems with
> the
>>
>>>> guide dog schools saying that a guide dog would not benefit you
>> because
>>>> you have "too much" vision?
>>>> Ultimately, this is my greatest fear. I'm scared of encountering
>>>> criticism by guide dog schools and "blindness professionals" about
>>>> whether a guide dog would benefit me or not. A lot of people with my
>>>> condition function well without a cane or a dog so would this be
> used
>>
>>>> against me if I were to apply?
>>>>
>>>> I am looking forward to hearing your responses and advice.
>>>>
>>>> Melissa
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