[nagdu] Introduction and Questions

Tami Kinney tamara.8024 at comcast.net
Mon Jan 30 23:12:49 UTC 2012 

Robert,

Well, those are valid questions.

First, under the new definition, a service animal is a dog, except for 
certain cases where it is a miniature horse.

Second, it is the training that makes the dog a service dog. The kind of 
service has to do with the specific type of training. Therefore, a guide 
dog is a type of service dog specifically trained to guide a blind 
person. The handler of the service dog must have a qualifying disability 
as defined by law.

No letter of certification may be required anywhere. It is illegal for 
an entity covered by the ADA to ask for a letter of certification or 
anything else along the lines. They may ask if the handler is disabled 
and what specific training the dog has. For airplanes, under the Air 
Carrier Access Act, things are a little different. As I recall, the 
definition of a service animal is passed down from the ADA...

Overseas flights, or cruises where the guide dog may be going into ports 
in other countries are affected by the laws and requirements of those 
countries. However, I've known other owner-trainers to take their guides 
on cruises, so they undoubtedly know more than I. /smile/

The service dog is required to be clean and healthy and so forth.

If people are blaming your dog for something another dog did, and they 
say it was "self-trained," that gives you no useful information about 
the dog or owner or the state of its training. It just gives you a lot 
of information about the person blaming you and/or your dog for 
something that is apparently none of their business and has nothing to 
do with you in the first place.

I and my dog get blamed for a lot of things a lot of other dogs do that 
has nothing to do with us. I hear a lot about the faults and ills of 
other guide dog users and their dogs, which are all from this or that 
program. I get blamed for dog poop left in a place I've never been 
before in my life, when my dog has not, in fact, pooped. Or anything. 
People can be quite aggressive. Which dog may have actually left poop 
which the owner/handler did not pick up remains a mystery, because the 
person is certain that my dog is the guilty party. I can be a hundred 
miles from home, walking down a sidewalk fresh off the plane in a new 
city, and I can only assume that I will hear all about what my dog does 
there all the time, and if we don't knock it off we will go to jail! I'm 
just used to it by now and don't even feel surprise.

A couple of times, a silent bystander to some such verbal assault has 
informed me that they've been looking all around for the offending 
substance, and that there is none. As opposed to the mounds and mounds 
of it I was so rudely informed my dog has been leaving there without 
even stepping off the sidewalk. /lol/

So if someone tells you your dog did it, probably the person is the 
problem, not some other dog.

I have had occasion to have to smooth things over because someone is 
afraid of my poodle guide, having been bit by a poodle guide in the 
past. The poodle was always trained by a program, by one of those 
certified trainers! My owner-trained poodle actually does the peace 
making with the person whose earlier experience makes them nervous 
around poodle guides by just being her. They can't believe it and decide 
that Mitzi is okay and very well-behaved and an excellent guide.

So, if I were to turn your reasoning around, I can say the same things 
about program-trained dogs that you assume about what you call 
"self-trained" dogs.

Most of the third party commentary I am favored with, I take with many 
grains of salt. When I am at a function where another guide dog -- 
wherever it was trained -- is having or causing some sort of difficulty 
with mine, I simply work it out with the other handler and we get our 
dogs settled or avoid the problem by cheerfully avoiding each other for 
the time being. Depending. There is a young guide in town that must play 
bow back and forth with Mitzi, which can be both embarrassing and 
amusing when the other handler and I are standing in a waiting line 
trying to pretend we are serious adults with highly trained guides. 
/lol/ Other than the dogs playing eye games with each other while their 
handlers are boringly standing in line, with the occasional play bow 
that the handlers can  barely feel through the harnesses, nothing bad 
goes on, so it's amusing to all. When it's time to move out of line and 
get back to work, I assume hers does as well as mine. I don't know 
because we have a mutual head the other direction pact. /lol/ Silly dogs!

Hope this clarifies a bit. /smile/

Tami

On 01/30/2012 02:20 PM, Harris.Robert at epamail.epa.gov wrote:
> That is a good question: But I've been slapped in the face with my back
> turned because of "self trained dogs" attacking another person or dog
> and I was blamed and had to fight my way out of it, fortunately I found
> witnesses that said no that was a very small dog or that was a what ever
> dog and looks nothing like yours.  I was lucky.
>
> Nope not judging or slapping back but just for discussion. There should
> be some type of process a person should have to go through to self train
> a puppy.  Sounds like fun but Program dog users can sometimes feel
> slighted or slapped too.
>
> Nobody else has said anything about it but eventually A guy like me will
> say something just because we hear "hand gestures" and other training
> tactics that require vision. So if we keep silent, we won't learn.  If
> we speak up We're judging?
>
> How does a self trained dog get on a plane with their master not to
> mention a cruise ship or other enclosed capsule where a letter of
> certification is required.  How does a self trained dog get protection
> afforded by law, just on anybody's word?  I've been asking questions
> like that for a long time and still haven't gotten answers.  can a
> person "self train a snake, pig, mouse, rat, etc.  where is the line
> drawn?
>
>
> Remember when I joined the list I said I was rough around the edges, but
> I love to talk about dogs and two areas I have feelings about and love
> learning about are yes people with very high vision applying for dogs
> and self trained dogs.
>
> In advance, anyone offended sorry!
>
> From:	Cindy Ray<cindyray at gmail.com>
> To:	"NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide
>              Dog Users"<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Date:	01/30/2012 03:54 PM
> Subject:	Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
> Sent by:	nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>
>
>
> Bob, that feels kind of like a slap in the face to some of these folks
> who are training their own dogs. Many of them are and have been for some
> time. Of course maybe I have misunderstood what you said, but what
> exactly is a certified trainer? How would you describe one.
>
> Cindy Lou
>
> On Jan 30, 2012, at 3:46 PM, Harris.Robert at epamail.epa.gov wrote:
>
>> Hi Marion:
>>
>> My wife has RP so I know all that.  I can only say how I felt when a
>> school in 1980 or 1981 had the balls to tell me I wanted the dog as a
>> pet made me feel. I also think (I'm an old fox with a lot of years and
>> experience now) that I saw a dog guide user with a day time drivers
>> license.  I'm not buying any of that but I'm just me:0).  When Pilot
>> took me on at 19 they basically saved my life. I'm a fast traveler and
>> was a top notch cane user who taught others that were blind, but, I
> went
>> to many many different places and knew in my heart that I needed four
>> legged help.
>>
>> I can tell you many instances where "self trained dogs caused me a lot
>> of problems, but, I think it is possible to train your own dog, if
> your
>> a certified trainer.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From:		 "Marion Gwizdala"<blind411 at verizon.net>
>> To:		 "NAGDU Mailing List,		 the National Association of
> Guide
>>             Dog Users"<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Date:		 01/30/2012 03:16 PM
>> Subject:		 Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>> Sent by:		 nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>
>>
>>
>> Robert,
>>     Individuals with retinitis pigmentosa may have fairly good acuity
>> but
>> their fields of vision may be seriously compromised. narrow fields of
>> vision
>> can distort depth perception so that individuals may not realize they
>> are
>> standing at the top of a flight of stairs or at the threshhold of a
>> loading
>> dock. Furthermore, since the periphery of the retina contains a high
>> concentration of rods cells that are responsible for sight in dimly
> lit
>> areas and the ability to see moving objects, those affected by this
>> condition benefit from using a dog to travel safely under those
>> conditions.
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From:<Harris.Robert at epamail.epa.gov>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 2:30 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>
>>
>>> I'm not sure why somebody with very high vision would need a dog
> guide
>>> and have said so in school.  Somebody and bodies were in training
> with
>>> me and could see faces, identify cars and see the surrounding area
>>> pretty clearly for well over 50 yards? I'm an honest person and
> didn't
>>> hesitate to ask why the hell they were getting a dog.  Answers off
>> list
>>> only but I was not happy&  hope they didn't get a dog guide.
>>>
>>> There are waiting lists for people who are very low partials&/or
>>> totally blind to get a dog guide so its not just a cut and dry "get a
>>> dog". there is a evaluation&  process for reasons mentioned above.
>>>
>>> Hope I don't come across as brash but I have very strong feelings
>> about
>>> this topic.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: "Larry D. Keeler"<lkeeler at comcast.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide
>>>            Dog Users"<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Date: 01/30/2012 12:58 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>> Sent by: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Good choice!  For me it was a case of the more the merrier!.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Melissa Pasron"<fuzzylucky2021 at sbcglobal.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 10:47 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>
>>>
>>>> Thank you for giving me a different perspective. I am really trying
>> to
>>>
>>>> weigh the options before I make a decision. My current deciding
>> factor
>>> is
>>>> that I currently have a pet dog and I don't know if I'll be ready to
>>> do
>>>> all the grooming and caring for two dogs. Not to mention if a guide
>>> dog is
>>>> right for me at the current moment. I think I'll just sit on the
>> issue
>>> for
>>>> a while and think about it. I don't want to go rushing into a
>> decision
>>>
>>>> without giving it a lot of thought.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 30, 2012, at 9:37 AM, "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)"
>>>> <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In making your decision, think about what you most want to do when
>>> you
>>>>> return home from being out someplace. Do you want to spend time
>>> grooming
>>>>> and caring for a dog, and doing it every single day, or would you
>>> rather
>>>>> do something else.
>>>>>
>>>>> I worked two dogs. Then I had my daughter and found that all I
>> wanted
>>> to
>>>>> do was hang out with her, especially after being at work all day.
>>> Taking
>>>>> care of the dog became more of a chore then something I enjoyed.
>> And,
>>> at
>>>>> times it became very difficult to balance, baby wanted to eat or be
>>> held,
>>>>> dog needed to be brushed, you can't do both at the same time. And,
>>> while
>>>>> an obvious answer may be "get help with the baby" I enjoyed and
>> still
>>>
>>>>> enjoy taking care of her.
>>>>> Think about how you'll feel when the dog wakes you up to go potty,
>>> will
>>>>> you be okay with it or will it mentally wear you out as "one more
>>> thing I
>>>>> have to do".
>>>>>
>>>>> What are your hobbies and are they comptible with a guide dog? You
>>> can
>>>>> always leave a cane, and a cane is easy to replace. Not true with a
>>> dog.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have had a couple access issues. I can tell you that when that
>>> happens,
>>>>> the very first thought that goes through your head is "This really
>>> f***s
>>>>> up my plans".
>>>>> I'll add that I like dogs. They are neat animals, and I think have
>>> much
>>>>> to teach us.  At times I miss having one.  On a day when the sun is
>>>>> shinging, and it's 65 degrees, I'd love to take a guide dog and
> walk
>>> on a
>>>>> bike path, as the feeling of you being in synch with a dog is
>>> amazing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Right now, I can't deal with the 24/7 nature of a guide dog.  I
>> can't
>>> do
>>>>> it with a pet dog either.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can bring a guide dog anywhere, but you also need to plan on
>> that
>>>
>>>>> with food, water, rest, appropriate supervision, things like that.
>>> It's
>>>>> difficult to "just stay a bit longer" when you didn't plan on it
> and
>>>>> don't have food for your dog.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, the answer is that it really depends. I offer my perspective
>>> because
>>>>> this list is made up of people who are currently using dogs and who
>>> like
>>>>> doing it.  It would be useful for you and others to have a
> different
>>>>> perspective.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf Of melissa padron
>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:35 PM
>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am new to this list so I though I would just start off with an
>>>>> introduction and then some questions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, first of all, my name is Melissa and although I am not a
> guide
>>> dog
>>>>> user I am a cane user. I'm in college pursuing a degree in
>> psychology
>>> and
>>>>> I will be moving back to my hometown once I graduate. I'm
> considered
>>>>> legally blind, so I do have vision.
>>>>>
>>>>> Because of the condition I have, I was not taught to use a cane
>> until
>>> my
>>>>> senior year of high school. I actually had to fight in order to get
>>> cane
>>>>> lessons, but since then, I just about take my cane everywhere with
>>> me. It
>>>>> helps a lot more than using my vision and stressing my eyes....
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, some questions:
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not considering getting a guide dog now but I do want to keep
>> it
>>> as
>>>>> an option if I decide that it would help me in my travels. So my
>>> question
>>>>> is, what was ultimately you deciding factor in getting a guide dog?
>>>>> What are some advantages and disadvantages in using a guide dog?
>>>>> For those of you who have vision, did you encounter problems with
>> the
>>>
>>>>> guide dog schools saying that a guide dog would not benefit you
>>> because
>>>>> you have "too much" vision?
>>>>> Ultimately, this is my greatest fear. I'm scared of encountering
>>>>> criticism by guide dog schools and "blindness professionals" about
>>>>> whether a guide dog would benefit me or not. A lot of people with
> my
>>>>> condition function well without a cane or a dog so would this be
>> used
>>>
>>>>> against me if I were to apply?
>>>>>
>>>>> I am looking forward to hearing your responses and advice.
>>>>>
>>>>> Melissa
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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