[nagdu] Introduction and Questions

Harris.Robert at epamail.epa.gov Harris.Robert at epamail.epa.gov
Tue Jan 31 15:38:35 UTC 2012


Awesome discussion and thanks.  I serve on some committees and am asked
these very questions so now I have some different prospective to go by.
As far as deserving or not deserving, yes your right, agencies that are
supposed to help us have a very refined script that discriminates and
stamps on civil rights equally between visually impaired and totally
blind folks equally:0). I fought tooth and nail through the entire
process and then some.


I have a set of pawz boots in my pocket I'll try on Prince later today.
Kelly (my wife) went on their website last night and said they also
carry some kind of coat.  Anyone tried the Pawz coat?

As for respect absolutely and I expect that same respect and do read and
think about every email I receive.

Yes I've spent exhaustive hours reading  the ADA and its proposed and
final amendment for the moment:0) was clarified somewhat but I still get
those kind of questions, that is why I proposed them here and again
thanks for the lively discussion.  As for the Sarcasm I don't care
either about that,.

I heard a new report that a visually impaired person was run down Friday
night here in the Chicago area (didn't say cane or dog or nothing), and
I've heard that if dogs and people are not trained correctly, people and
dogs do die and you've reassured me that owner training is taken very
seriously.  Now I have to move on so have a great day and you won't hear
from me for a while out here, if you wish to chat, write off list.

Peace, Prince and I are out!



From:	"Steven Johnson" <blinddog3 at charter.net>
To:	"'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide
            Dog Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Date:	01/30/2012 06:50 PM
Subject:	Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
Sent by:	nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org



Robert,
You may wish to become familiar with the updated definition of Service
Dog,
passed into law on March 15, 2011 as it changed from that of Service
Animals
to the more specific definition of dogs with the exception of miniature
horses.  Additionally, this only applies to ADA titles II and III, no
other
CR laws.  So, the questions about training other animals is n o longer
applicable for service work for persons with disabilities.

Steve




-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf
Of Harris.Robert at epamail.epa.gov
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 4:20 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions

That is a good question: But I've been slapped in the face with my back
turned because of "self trained dogs" attacking another person or dog
and I
was blamed and had to fight my way out of it, fortunately I found
witnesses
that said no that was a very small dog or that was a what ever dog and
looks
nothing like yours.  I was lucky.

Nope not judging or slapping back but just for discussion. There should
be
some type of process a person should have to go through to self train a
puppy.  Sounds like fun but Program dog users can sometimes feel
slighted or
slapped too.

Nobody else has said anything about it but eventually A guy like me will
say
something just because we hear "hand gestures" and other training
tactics
that require vision. So if we keep silent, we won't learn.  If we speak
up
We're judging?

How does a self trained dog get on a plane with their master not to
mention
a cruise ship or other enclosed capsule where a letter of certification
is
required.  How does a self trained dog get protection afforded by law,
just
on anybody's word?  I've been asking questions like that for a long time
and
still haven't gotten answers.  can a person "self train a snake, pig,
mouse,
rat, etc.  where is the line drawn?


Remember when I joined the list I said I was rough around the edges, but
I
love to talk about dogs and two areas I have feelings about and love
learning about are yes people with very high vision applying for dogs
and
self trained dogs.

In advance, anyone offended sorry!

From:		 Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
To:		 "NAGDU Mailing List,		 the National Association of
Guide
            Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Date:		 01/30/2012 03:54 PM
Subject:		 Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
Sent by:		 nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org



Bob, that feels kind of like a slap in the face to some of these folks
who
are training their own dogs. Many of them are and have been for some
time.
Of course maybe I have misunderstood what you said, but what exactly is
a
certified trainer? How would you describe one.

Cindy Lou

On Jan 30, 2012, at 3:46 PM, Harris.Robert at epamail.epa.gov wrote:

> Hi Marion:
>
> My wife has RP so I know all that.  I can only say how I felt when a
> school in 1980 or 1981 had the balls to tell me I wanted the dog as a
> pet made me feel. I also think (I'm an old fox with a lot of years and

> experience now) that I saw a dog guide user with a day time drivers
> license.  I'm not buying any of that but I'm just me:0).  When Pilot
> took me on at 19 they basically saved my life. I'm a fast traveler and

> was a top notch cane user who taught others that were blind, but, I
went
> to many many different places and knew in my heart that I needed four
> legged help.
>
> I can tell you many instances where "self trained dogs caused me a lot

> of problems, but, I think it is possible to train your own dog, if
your
> a certified trainer.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From:		 		  "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
> To:		 		  "NAGDU Mailing List,		 		  the
National Association of
Guide
>            Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Date:		 		  01/30/2012 03:16 PM
> Subject:		 		  Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
> Sent by:		 		  nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>
>
>
> Robert,
>    Individuals with retinitis pigmentosa may have fairly good acuity
> but their fields of vision may be seriously compromised. narrow fields

> of vision can distort depth perception so that individuals may not
> realize they are standing at the top of a flight of stairs or at the
> threshhold of a loading dock. Furthermore, since the periphery of the
> retina contains a high concentration of rods cells that are
> responsible for sight in dimly
lit
> areas and the ability to see moving objects, those affected by this
> condition benefit from using a dog to travel safely under those
> conditions.
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Harris.Robert at epamail.epa.gov>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 2:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>
>
>> I'm not sure why somebody with very high vision would need a dog
guide
>> and have said so in school.  Somebody and bodies were in training
with
>> me and could see faces, identify cars and see the surrounding area
>> pretty clearly for well over 50 yards? I'm an honest person and
didn't
>> hesitate to ask why the hell they were getting a dog.  Answers off
> list
>> only but I was not happy & hope they didn't get a dog guide.
>>
>> There are waiting lists for people who are very low partials &/or
>> totally blind to get a dog guide so its not just a cut and dry "get a

>> dog". there is a evaluation & process for reasons mentioned above.
>>
>> Hope I don't come across as brash but I have very strong feelings
> about
>> this topic.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: "Larry D. Keeler" <lkeeler at comcast.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide
>>           Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Date: 01/30/2012 12:58 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions Sent by:
>> nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>
>>
>>
>> Good choice!  For me it was a case of the more the merrier!.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Melissa Pasron" <fuzzylucky2021 at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 10:47 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>
>>
>>> Thank you for giving me a different perspective. I am really trying
> to
>>
>>> weigh the options before I make a decision. My current deciding
> factor
>> is
>>> that I currently have a pet dog and I don't know if I'll be ready to
>> do
>>> all the grooming and caring for two dogs. Not to mention if a guide
>> dog is
>>> right for me at the current moment. I think I'll just sit on the
> issue
>> for
>>> a while and think about it. I don't want to go rushing into a
> decision
>>
>>> without giving it a lot of thought.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Jan 30, 2012, at 9:37 AM, "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)"
>>> <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In making your decision, think about what you most want to do when
>> you
>>>> return home from being out someplace. Do you want to spend time
>> grooming
>>>> and caring for a dog, and doing it every single day, or would you
>> rather
>>>> do something else.
>>>>
>>>> I worked two dogs. Then I had my daughter and found that all I
> wanted
>> to
>>>> do was hang out with her, especially after being at work all day.
>> Taking
>>>> care of the dog became more of a chore then something I enjoyed.
> And,
>> at
>>>> times it became very difficult to balance, baby wanted to eat or be
>> held,
>>>> dog needed to be brushed, you can't do both at the same time. And,
>> while
>>>> an obvious answer may be "get help with the baby" I enjoyed and
> still
>>
>>>> enjoy taking care of her.
>>>> Think about how you'll feel when the dog wakes you up to go potty,
>> will
>>>> you be okay with it or will it mentally wear you out as "one more
>> thing I
>>>> have to do".
>>>>
>>>> What are your hobbies and are they comptible with a guide dog? You
>> can
>>>> always leave a cane, and a cane is easy to replace. Not true with a
>> dog.
>>>>
>>>> I have had a couple access issues. I can tell you that when that
>> happens,
>>>> the very first thought that goes through your head is "This really
>> f***s
>>>> up my plans".
>>>> I'll add that I like dogs. They are neat animals, and I think have
>> much
>>>> to teach us.  At times I miss having one.  On a day when the sun is

>>>> shinging, and it's 65 degrees, I'd love to take a guide dog and
walk
>> on a
>>>> bike path, as the feeling of you being in synch with a dog is
>> amazing.
>>>>
>>>> Right now, I can't deal with the 24/7 nature of a guide dog.  I
> can't
>> do
>>>> it with a pet dog either.
>>>>
>>>> You can bring a guide dog anywhere, but you also need to plan on
> that
>>
>>>> with food, water, rest, appropriate supervision, things like that.
>> It's
>>>> difficult to "just stay a bit longer" when you didn't plan on it
and
>>>> don't have food for your dog.
>>>>
>>>> So, the answer is that it really depends. I offer my perspective
>> because
>>>> this list is made up of people who are currently using dogs and who
>> like
>>>> doing it.  It would be useful for you and others to have a
different
>>>> perspective.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On

>>>> Behalf Of melissa padron
>>>> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:35 PM
>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am new to this list so I though I would just start off with an
>>>> introduction and then some questions.
>>>>
>>>> Well, first of all, my name is Melissa and although I am not a
guide
>> dog
>>>> user I am a cane user. I'm in college pursuing a degree in
> psychology
>> and
>>>> I will be moving back to my hometown once I graduate. I'm
considered
>>>> legally blind, so I do have vision.
>>>>
>>>> Because of the condition I have, I was not taught to use a cane
> until
>> my
>>>> senior year of high school. I actually had to fight in order to get
>> cane
>>>> lessons, but since then, I just about take my cane everywhere with
>> me. It
>>>> helps a lot more than using my vision and stressing my eyes....
>>>>
>>>> Now, some questions:
>>>>
>>>> I am not considering getting a guide dog now but I do want to keep
> it
>> as
>>>> an option if I decide that it would help me in my travels. So my
>> question
>>>> is, what was ultimately you deciding factor in getting a guide dog?
>>>> What are some advantages and disadvantages in using a guide dog?
>>>> For those of you who have vision, did you encounter problems with
> the
>>
>>>> guide dog schools saying that a guide dog would not benefit you
>> because
>>>> you have "too much" vision?
>>>> Ultimately, this is my greatest fear. I'm scared of encountering
>>>> criticism by guide dog schools and "blindness professionals" about
>>>> whether a guide dog would benefit me or not. A lot of people with
my
>>>> condition function well without a cane or a dog so would this be
> used
>>
>>>> against me if I were to apply?
>>>>
>>>> I am looking forward to hearing your responses and advice.
>>>>
>>>> Melissa
>>>> _______________________________________________
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om

>
>>
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