[nagdu] Third party reporting by other guide dog users

Sun Jun 10 18:51:32 UTC 2012

This is why several of my friends are giving up on school trained dogs
for owner-training dogs because of people on lists or so called
friends are reporting them hence ahving to go back to school for more
training for one problem or another.
Debbie

On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Lyn Gwizdak <linda.gwizdak at cox.net> wrote:
> Now, this is an interesting topic!  I thought this was a weird phenominum
> peculiar to San Diego!  Back in 1988, when I moved here, I had a
> problem-child of a dog that ultimately led to her retirement a couple of
> years later.  Also, after that fiasco, The Seeing Eye actually told me
> straight out that the problem wasn't my fault at all and that they didn't
> put out "borderline" dogs like that one anymore.  To make a long story
> short, at the time TSE used correction methods evidently not used by the
> California schools.  I belong to a blind center where most of the guide dog
> users have California school dogs.  Instead of helping me with the problems
> I was having, they just went behind my back and complained to TSE.  TSE
> essentially blew them off as busybodies as I was also in close working
> relationship on the problems with them and they knew what was going on
> anyway.
>
> Several years later, after I retired a dog from a California school, had
> some foot, knee, and ankle problems, was injured on the trolley, I applied
> for a new dog.  The same busybodies were at it again for old reasons and new
> reasons.  As a result, I was rejected by two California schools - all based
> on hearsay and things not even true.  I applied back to TSE and they
> accepted me right away!  They heard the same crap but they already knew me
> and blew the troublemakers off.  Now, the busybodies have given up because I
> will only go to TSE and not bother with schools who just listen to crap.
>
> Now, have I reported anyone to their school?  Yes on two occassions.  One
> was a person whose dog constantly attacked the other dogs - mine included -
> at our center.  And after I spoke to the person first and after that person
> blew me off and got nasty about it and their failure to do something about
> the problem.  The other time was when a person here was applying to TSE.  I
> knew this person to be mentally unhealthy and she was very abusive to her
> former dog - kicking it when she got mad at anything.  Evidently, TSE
> received other negative stuff and they rejected this person.  The school's
> interviewer must have also seen that this was not a good applicant either.
>
> That is pretty bad for listers from another list to do this to a person.
> This type of thing makes being on lists unsafe.  I'm glad this hasn't gone
> on in this list or the other ones I'm on.  We need to be supportive of each
> other in solving our problems.  We should be able to feel that we are
> friends who understand.  After all, we are all guide dog users for the most
> part and some of us have had a long history of using dogs and others are
> brand new to it.  People who tear down others on a list and report them to
> the person's school are only indulging in marginalizational behaviors and we
> need to stop that.  We already have people out there who do this to us as it
> is.  Let's make sure we are treating each other as we want to be treated
> ourselves.  If a person is having problems with their dog, I first tell them
> to talk to their school because the schools differ on things.
>
> Lyn and Landon
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry D. Keeler" <lkeeler at comcast.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 2:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Third party reporting by other guide dog users
>
>
>> I think it would be sort of rude to report a user from a list.  Because
>> the list members are using the list to get input as to handle such issues as
>> handling, medical or training issues.  The fact that most write to a list is
>> to check and evaluate what others have experienced.  And, the issue might
>> not be there issue but someone elses.  If I observed the behavior and judged
>> it serious, then, I would report.  Maybe if I knew the person I might ask
>> them about it but for me to report it it would have to be really obvious!
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurel" <laurel.stockard at gmail.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 5:23 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Third party reporting by other guide dog users
>>
>>
>>> Personally, I would only report another guide dog user if it was a
>>> huge issue, such as their guide dog attacked mine, or they were
>>> clearly abusing their dog, or their life or the dog's life was clearly
>>> in danger. Example of this would be if I saw somebody beating their
>>> dog or something crazy that I know none of you all would ever even
>>> think about doing. I would never report somebody just because they did
>>> things differently. I might disagree with a way that another handler
>>> might do something, but ultimately, it's none of my business how other
>>> people decide to handle their dogs.
>>>
>>> I have seen people try to report other people though. I have observed
>>> situations where people didn't agree with a specific individuals
>>> course of action in a particular situation and because of that they
>>> attempted to make this person's life hell. All I will say on the topic
>>> is, if a person is mature enough and responsible enough to have a
>>> guide, and is probably an adult, then act like it. Treat people the
>>> way you wanna be treated. I have seen this happen and I've seen how
>>> nasty it can get.
>>>
>>> Anyway, yes, this does happen, most of the time without merritt, but
>>> on occasion I would say there are good reasons to report somebody. I
>>> would never report somebody though unless I was absolutely, 100% sure
>>> that something horrible was going on.
>>> Anyway, hope that sort of answers your question,
>>> Laurel and Stockard
>>>
>>> On 6/9/12, Larry D. Keeler <lkeeler at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Not me!  I would only report on really big issues that I have observed.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Tami Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 1:30 PM
>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Third party reporting by other guide dog users
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> My question is this: Do guide dog users routinely report other guide
>>>>> dog
>>>>> users to their training program and trainer for minor mishaps mentioned
>>>>> on
>>>>>
>>>>> discussion lists. Or because the guide dog user being reported doesn't
>>>>> use
>>>>>
>>>>> the collar the reporter believes they should use, stuff like that? And
>>>>> do
>>>>>
>>>>> they do it in a way that makes the one they are reporting sound super
>>>>> irresponsible and unwilling to listen to help? For that matter, would
>>>>> most
>>>>>
>>>>> trainers take these reports seriously, over the information given by
>>>>> the
>>>>> guide dog user who has been reported to them?
>>>>>
>>>>> Okay, here's my long explanation behind the questions:
>>>>>
>>>>> Since I'm an owner-trainer, the notion that another guide dog user
>>>>> might
>>>>> report me to my trainer for any reason has never troubled my fluffy
>>>>> little
>>>>>
>>>>> head before.
>>>>>
>>>>> Only I recently found out that this sort of thing actually happens! Not
>>>>> for witnessed events of great severity as some of the "what would you
>>>>> do"
>>>>>
>>>>> discussions of awhile ago, where there was a scenario involving one
>>>>> guide
>>>>>
>>>>> dog attacking another and causing injury and another involving a guide
>>>>> dog
>>>>>
>>>>> user reportedly regularly blowing a street crossing so badly as to
>>>>> cause
>>>>> risk of traffic accidents in addition to putting himself and his dog in
>>>>> danger. In those, I think a few people raised the notion of getting in
>>>>> touch with the guide dog user's school but I don't remember that there
>>>>> was
>>>>>
>>>>> a consensus that this would be an appropriate course of action. They
>>>>> were
>>>>>
>>>>> "what if" questions, so no consensus was needed. /smile/
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, I'm pretty shocked to learn that there are guide dog users who
>>>>> will report other guide dog users for blurbs on e-mail discussion
>>>>> lists.
>>>>> Not this one, but it recently happened. And now I find out it has
>>>>> happened
>>>>>
>>>>> before, with the same group of people doing the reporting.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, let's say that I mention in that group that Mitzi did X in random
>>>>> chatter, thinking I was among friends. Suddenly, some people are asking
>>>>> me
>>>>>
>>>>> questions, which I answer to clear things up... Then they start insist
>>>>> that I said something 3 months ago that contradicts what I just said
>>>>> about
>>>>>
>>>>> what Mitzi did yesterday, and then I get upset and rattled and try to
>>>>> clear things up.... So then there's blood in the water.
>>>>>
>>>>> Next thing I know, I get a letter from my trainer about what I said on
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>> list and then another one which is where I find out people from this
>>>>> group
>>>>>
>>>>> have been getting in touch with him/her repeatedly about how they're
>>>>> helping me but I won't listen and stuff like that, because I don't do
>>>>> exactly what they tell me to do faithfully no matter what it is.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since I know the people involved and the dog in question fairly well, I
>>>>> wasn't surprised by the verbal attack by a certain few members of the
>>>>> group. Sigh. Maybe they do think they're helping, but... Um... Oh,
>>>>> well. I
>>>>>
>>>>> was just shocked to learn that one or more of them would go so far as
>>>>> to
>>>>> call the trainer on another user because of a blip on a list. Sheesh! I
>>>>> guess that this actually goes on in that group. Heavens! Oddly, the
>>>>> "helpers" there chat a lot on that list and go to the same school and
>>>>> have
>>>>>
>>>>> the same trainer... Which makes me wonder if they should get a great
>>>>> big
>>>>> van and fill it with crates and take the whole lot of dogs back to
>>>>> school.
>>>>>
>>>>> /lol/ I'm delving in sarcasm there, but the list of things I can recall
>>>>> that these helpful guide dog users have reported their dogs getting up
>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>> are fairly amazing. They're all relatively new dogs, young dogs, so I
>>>>> tend
>>>>>
>>>>> to figure the handlers are getting it worked out and can figure out for
>>>>> themselves if they need to contact the trainer. But, I guess, If I were
>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>> follow their fine example... No, of course, I won't do that. That's
>>>>> just
>>>>> so... Tacky! /lol/
>>>>>
>>>>> So my question is: Does this actually go on? Do guide dog users report
>>>>> other guide dog users just to be manipulative and retaliatory or
>>>>> whatever?
>>>>>
>>>>> Even if it's clearly stated that the guide dog user they are reporting
>>>>> is
>>>>>
>>>>> in contact with the trainer over the matter they mention?
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, I'm suddenly feeling really smug that if any of these folks want
>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>> report me to my trainer, they are welcome to! My trainer will treat
>>>>> their
>>>>>
>>>>> reports with all the attention they deserve.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, they've helped me, too! By explaining sternly that I should never
>>>>> stick sharp metal implements into my poodle's ear canals... I'm not
>>>>> making
>>>>>
>>>>> that up. I mean, that is a true statement, I can agree to that.
>>>>> However...
>>>>>
>>>>> Do I *look* that stupid? /lol/ I kinda figured that one out on my own
>>>>> years ago, so I don't know that telling me to do something I know
>>>>> better
>>>>> than to do is helpful. I've been helped to understand the bus routes
>>>>> around my home. Again, apparently, I really am too stupid to work that
>>>>> out
>>>>>
>>>>> on my own somehow... Sheesh!
>>>>>
>>>>> So I haven't fallen all over myself in gratitude or listened, really...
>>>>> So
>>>>>
>>>>> I could be reported, I am sure! Well, and I don't have a certified
>>>>> guide,
>>>>>
>>>>> no ID card to flash... Why would I owner-train when I could get a
>>>>> certified guide dog? Um... For those who are relatively new enough to
>>>>> have
>>>>>
>>>>> not read any of those discussions, there is no such thing as a
>>>>> certified
>>>>> guide dog in terms of the ADA and access to places of public
>>>>> accommodation. The guide dog training programs must be certified for
>>>>> the
>>>>> consumer's protection. The trainers must also be certified to work at
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>> certified guide dog training program. The dogs are not certified. The
>>>>> nice
>>>>>
>>>>> ID cards often have the relevant portions of the law printed on them,
>>>>> which does make them useful. They do not grant you access to anything
>>>>> at
>>>>> all, and it is illegal for anyone to ask you to show them. /smile/ It's
>>>>> your dog's training for your disability that counts, and your dog's
>>>>> good
>>>>> behavior, etc., once you walk into a place. But I have a feeling I am
>>>>> being "taught by example" for being the other guide dog user's friend
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>> for being an owner-trainer by having things addressed to me that make a
>>>>> point of mentioning the flashing of ID cards. /lol/ I've never even
>>>>> said
>>>>> there what I *really* think of that practice! It's anyone's choice what
>>>>> they do with the ID card from their school, so why get uptight about
>>>>> it?
>>>>> /lol/
>>>>>
>>>>> Tami
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
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>>
>>
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>
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