[nagdu] Third party reporting by other guide dog users

Larry D. Keeler lkeeler at comcast.net
Tue Jun 12 16:10:46 UTC 2012


No wonder you are sort of gun shy when it comes to guide dogs and services! 
If I'd had such an experience I would have put my horns and little red cape 
on!  I've had a wonderful experience with my school and also with other 
school representatives at conventions.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jenny Keller" <jlperdue3 at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Third party reporting by other guide dog users


> Hi Lyn,
>
> the school didn't call me that.  It was someone on another guide dog list 
> that called me that and they threatened that if they found out what school 
> I applied to, they would insure I never got a guide dog again.
>
> also, I called TSE about applying for a dog and asked the, after 
> explaining a little bit that I had problems with Southeastern and that 
> they would not have anything good to say about me.  I asked them if that 
> would be a factor in my application.
>
> they came out and said that they would talk to Southeaster, and I know 
> they do, because when I applied to them the first tie, they told 
> Southeastern that I had applied and that's when Southeastern lied and said 
> that they trained Brooks specifically for me.  Which I found out from a 
> woman who graduated a month before I came to class, that they offered 
> Brooks to her during her class training and she would've taken him home 
> had he been a female.  So obviously the training him specifically for e 
> was a load of crap in order to make me feel obligated to come back to 
> their school.
>
> they also told me that another trainer, who had worked with me during my 
> first class trained him for most of his training.  I found out from that 
> same woman, that another trainer entirely trained him.
>
> I gushed, when I went to the school, about how grateful I was to that 
> trainer who actually did all of his training, about how grateful I was 
> about my former trainer training him specifically for me, and they still 
> went on with the lie, to my face about who trained him.
>
> Dirty and deceitful.
>
> Jenny
> On Jun 10, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Lyn Gwizdak wrote:
>
>> Hi Jenny,
>> To me, if a school will reject a prospective student based on hearsay, 
>> they ain't worth it.  Staff from a decent school will always give a 
>> person the benefit of the doubt and determine - after meeting said 
>> applicant, doing a Juno walk with said applicant - to determine if that 
>> applicant would be sucessful in their program.  Period.  Seeing Eye is 
>> such a school.
>>
>> So what did your former school threaten you with had you gone ahead and 
>> applied to Seeing Eye?  What could they do to you?  If they talked smack 
>> about you to another school you applied to and that school turned you 
>> down based on that and never even interacting with you, well, that school 
>> ain't worth it.  Don't let anyone cow you.  That school acted like a 
>> bully as far as I can tell from what you said happened.  Bullies MUST be 
>> stood up to. Get allies if you need to, but STAND UP to them.  Did that 
>> school actually come out and call you a b***t?  That sure was very sexist 
>> of them if they did.  That is a common slur towards any female who stands 
>> up for herself. Call them on that as well. You deserve respect and 
>> nothing less and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
>>
>> I hope that you have much better luck with the school you have applied to 
>> and get a good dog.  There is a dog out there for you and you just have 
>> yet to meet it! (grin!)
>>
>> Lyn and Landon
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jenny Keller" <jlperdue3 at gmail.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 1:05 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Third party reporting by other guide dog users
>>
>>
>>> To answer your question.
>>>
>>> YES when I was having issues with my former guide last Easter and had to 
>>> retire him.  I told the list what had happened and let them know that 
>>> the school I had gotten the dog from had done some dirty manipulation to 
>>> get me to come back there after I had applied somewhere else and they 
>>> found out about it.
>>>
>>> there were threats made that if they found out what guide dog school I 
>>> had applied to now, that they would assure that I never got a guide dog 
>>> again, and that I was a horrible handler, and that I was a B***h and 
>>> that I never should've been given a dog in the first place.
>>>
>>> The person that received that threat is on this list, though I will not 
>>> mention their name for their privacy.
>>>
>>> there are people who think they know best and will certainly stick their 
>>> noses where it doesn't belong because they think they know best.
>>>
>>> It is important to watch what you say on any list.
>>>
>>> Jenny
>>> On Jun 9, 2012, at 12:30 PM, Tami Kinney wrote:
>>>
>>>> My question is this: Do guide dog users routinely report other guide 
>>>> dog users to their training program and trainer for minor mishaps 
>>>> mentioned on discussion lists. Or because the guide dog user being 
>>>> reported doesn't use the collar the reporter believes they should use, 
>>>> stuff like that? And do they do it in a way that makes the one they are 
>>>> reporting sound super irresponsible and unwilling to listen to help? 
>>>> For that matter, would most trainers take these reports seriously, over 
>>>> the information given by the guide dog user who has been reported to 
>>>> them?
>>>>
>>>> Okay, here's my long explanation behind the questions:
>>>>
>>>> Since I'm an owner-trainer, the notion that another guide dog user 
>>>> might report me to my trainer for any reason has never troubled my 
>>>> fluffy little head before.
>>>>
>>>> Only I recently found out that this sort of thing actually happens! Not 
>>>> for witnessed events of great severity as some of the "what would you 
>>>> do" discussions of awhile ago, where there was a scenario involving one 
>>>> guide dog attacking another and causing injury and another involving a 
>>>> guide dog user reportedly regularly blowing a street crossing so badly 
>>>> as to cause risk of traffic accidents in addition to putting himself 
>>>> and his dog in danger. In those, I think a few people raised the notion 
>>>> of getting in touch with the guide dog user's school but I don't 
>>>> remember that there was a consensus that this would be an appropriate 
>>>> course of action. They were "what if" questions, so no consensus was 
>>>> needed. /smile/
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, I'm pretty shocked to learn that there are guide dog users who 
>>>> will report other guide dog users for blurbs on e-mail discussion 
>>>> lists. Not this one, but it recently happened. And now I find out it 
>>>> has happened before, with the same group of people doing the reporting.
>>>>
>>>> So, let's say that I mention in that group that Mitzi did X in random 
>>>> chatter, thinking I was among friends. Suddenly, some people are asking 
>>>> me questions, which I answer to clear things up... Then they start 
>>>> insist that I said something 3 months ago that contradicts what I just 
>>>> said about what Mitzi did yesterday, and then I get upset and rattled 
>>>> and try to clear things up.... So then there's blood in the water.
>>>>
>>>> Next thing I know, I get a letter from my trainer about what I said on 
>>>> the list and then another one which is where I find out people from 
>>>> this group have been getting in touch with him/her repeatedly about how 
>>>> they're helping me but I won't listen and stuff like that, because I 
>>>> don't do exactly what they tell me to do faithfully no matter what it 
>>>> is.
>>>>
>>>> Since I know the people involved and the dog in question fairly well, I 
>>>> wasn't surprised by the verbal attack by a certain few members of the 
>>>> group. Sigh. Maybe they do think they're helping, but... Um... Oh, 
>>>> well. I was just shocked to learn that one or more of them would go so 
>>>> far as to call the trainer on another user because of a blip on a list. 
>>>> Sheesh! I guess that this actually goes on in that group. Heavens! 
>>>> Oddly, the "helpers" there chat a lot on that list and go to the same 
>>>> school and have the same trainer... Which makes me wonder if they 
>>>> should get a great big van and fill it with crates and take the whole 
>>>> lot of dogs back to school. /lol/ I'm delving in sarcasm there, but the 
>>>> list of things I can recall that these helpful guide dog users have 
>>>> reported their dogs getting up to are fairly amazing. They're all 
>>>> relatively new dogs, young dogs, so I tend to figure the handlers are 
>>>> getting it worked out and can figure out for themselves if they need to 
>>>> contact the trainer. But, I guess, If I were to follow their fine 
>>>> example... No, of course, I won't do that. That's just so... Tacky! 
>>>> /lol/
>>>>
>>>> So my question is: Does this actually go on? Do guide dog users report 
>>>> other guide dog users just to be manipulative and retaliatory or 
>>>> whatever? Even if it's clearly stated that the guide dog user they are 
>>>> reporting is in contact with the trainer over the matter they mention?
>>>>
>>>> Well, I'm suddenly feeling really smug that if any of these folks want 
>>>> to report me to my trainer, they are welcome to! My trainer will treat 
>>>> their reports with all the attention they deserve.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, they've helped me, too! By explaining sternly that I should never 
>>>> stick sharp metal implements into my poodle's ear canals... I'm not 
>>>> making that up. I mean, that is a true statement, I can agree to that. 
>>>> However... Do I *look* that stupid? /lol/ I kinda figured that one out 
>>>> on my own years ago, so I don't know that telling me to do something I 
>>>> know better than to do is helpful. I've been helped to understand the 
>>>> bus routes around my home. Again, apparently, I really am too stupid to 
>>>> work that out on my own somehow... Sheesh!
>>>>
>>>> So I haven't fallen all over myself in gratitude or listened, really... 
>>>> So I could be reported, I am sure! Well, and I don't have a certified 
>>>> guide, no ID card to flash... Why would I owner-train when I could get 
>>>> a certified guide dog? Um... For those who are relatively new enough to 
>>>> have not read any of those discussions, there is no such thing as a 
>>>> certified guide dog in terms of the ADA and access to places of public 
>>>> accommodation. The guide dog training programs must be certified for 
>>>> the consumer's protection. The trainers must also be certified to work 
>>>> at the certified guide dog training program. The dogs are not 
>>>> certified. The nice ID cards often have the relevant portions of the 
>>>> law printed on them, which does make them useful. They do not grant you 
>>>> access to anything at all, and it is illegal for anyone to ask you to 
>>>> show them. /smile/ It's your dog's training for your disability that 
>>>> counts, and your dog's good behavior, etc., once you walk into a place. 
>>>> But I have a feeling I am being "taught by example" for being the other 
>>>> guide dog user's friend and for being an owner-trainer by having things 
>>>> addressed to me that make a point of mentioning the flashing of ID 
>>>> cards. /lol/ I've never even said there what I *really* think of that 
>>>> practice! It's anyone's choice what they do with the ID card from their 
>>>> school, so why get uptight about it? /lol/
>>>>
>>>> Tami
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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>
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