[nagdu] Third party reporting by other guide dog users

Larry D. Keeler lkeeler at comcast.net
Tue Jun 12 20:17:05 UTC 2012 

Yah, you would say that sence its the same one!  Just kidding. Are you stil 
in Columbus?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "rhonda cruz" <rhondaprincess at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Third party reporting by other guide dog users


> I also had a wonderful experience at my school as well,
>
>
> On Jun 12, 2012, at 9:10 AM, Larry D. Keeler wrote:
>
>> No wonder you are sort of gun shy when it comes to guide dogs and 
>> services! If I'd had such an experience I would have put my horns and 
>> little red cape on!  I've had a wonderful experience with my school and 
>> also with other school representatives at conventions.
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jenny Keller" <jlperdue3 at gmail.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:05 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Third party reporting by other guide dog users
>>
>>
>>> Hi Lyn,
>>>
>>> the school didn't call me that.  It was someone on another guide dog 
>>> list that called me that and they threatened that if they found out what 
>>> school I applied to, they would insure I never got a guide dog again.
>>>
>>> also, I called TSE about applying for a dog and asked the, after 
>>> explaining a little bit that I had problems with Southeastern and that 
>>> they would not have anything good to say about me.  I asked them if that 
>>> would be a factor in my application.
>>>
>>> they came out and said that they would talk to Southeaster, and I know 
>>> they do, because when I applied to them the first tie, they told 
>>> Southeastern that I had applied and that's when Southeastern lied and 
>>> said that they trained Brooks specifically for me.  Which I found out 
>>> from a woman who graduated a month before I came to class, that they 
>>> offered Brooks to her during her class training and she would've taken 
>>> him home had he been a female.  So obviously the training him 
>>> specifically for e was a load of crap in order to make me feel obligated 
>>> to come back to their school.
>>>
>>> they also told me that another trainer, who had worked with me during my 
>>> first class trained him for most of his training.  I found out from that 
>>> same woman, that another trainer entirely trained him.
>>>
>>> I gushed, when I went to the school, about how grateful I was to that 
>>> trainer who actually did all of his training, about how grateful I was 
>>> about my former trainer training him specifically for me, and they still 
>>> went on with the lie, to my face about who trained him.
>>>
>>> Dirty and deceitful.
>>>
>>> Jenny
>>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Lyn Gwizdak wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Jenny,
>>>> To me, if a school will reject a prospective student based on hearsay, 
>>>> they ain't worth it.  Staff from a decent school will always give a 
>>>> person the benefit of the doubt and determine - after meeting said 
>>>> applicant, doing a Juno walk with said applicant - to determine if that 
>>>> applicant would be sucessful in their program.  Period.  Seeing Eye is 
>>>> such a school.
>>>>
>>>> So what did your former school threaten you with had you gone ahead and 
>>>> applied to Seeing Eye?  What could they do to you?  If they talked 
>>>> smack about you to another school you applied to and that school turned 
>>>> you down based on that and never even interacting with you, well, that 
>>>> school ain't worth it.  Don't let anyone cow you.  That school acted 
>>>> like a bully as far as I can tell from what you said happened.  Bullies 
>>>> MUST be stood up to. Get allies if you need to, but STAND UP to them. 
>>>> Did that school actually come out and call you a b***t?  That sure was 
>>>> very sexist of them if they did.  That is a common slur towards any 
>>>> female who stands up for herself. Call them on that as well. You 
>>>> deserve respect and nothing less and don't let anyone tell you 
>>>> otherwise.
>>>>
>>>> I hope that you have much better luck with the school you have applied 
>>>> to and get a good dog.  There is a dog out there for you and you just 
>>>> have yet to meet it! (grin!)
>>>>
>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jenny Keller" <jlperdue3 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 1:05 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Third party reporting by other guide dog users
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> To answer your question.
>>>>>
>>>>> YES when I was having issues with my former guide last Easter and had 
>>>>> to retire him.  I told the list what had happened and let them know 
>>>>> that the school I had gotten the dog from had done some dirty 
>>>>> manipulation to get me to come back there after I had applied 
>>>>> somewhere else and they found out about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> there were threats made that if they found out what guide dog school I 
>>>>> had applied to now, that they would assure that I never got a guide 
>>>>> dog again, and that I was a horrible handler, and that I was a B***h 
>>>>> and that I never should've been given a dog in the first place.
>>>>>
>>>>> The person that received that threat is on this list, though I will 
>>>>> not mention their name for their privacy.
>>>>>
>>>>> there are people who think they know best and will certainly stick 
>>>>> their noses where it doesn't belong because they think they know best.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is important to watch what you say on any list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jenny
>>>>> On Jun 9, 2012, at 12:30 PM, Tami Kinney wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> My question is this: Do guide dog users routinely report other guide 
>>>>>> dog users to their training program and trainer for minor mishaps 
>>>>>> mentioned on discussion lists. Or because the guide dog user being 
>>>>>> reported doesn't use the collar the reporter believes they should 
>>>>>> use, stuff like that? And do they do it in a way that makes the one 
>>>>>> they are reporting sound super irresponsible and unwilling to listen 
>>>>>> to help? For that matter, would most trainers take these reports 
>>>>>> seriously, over the information given by the guide dog user who has 
>>>>>> been reported to them?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Okay, here's my long explanation behind the questions:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since I'm an owner-trainer, the notion that another guide dog user 
>>>>>> might report me to my trainer for any reason has never troubled my 
>>>>>> fluffy little head before.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only I recently found out that this sort of thing actually happens! 
>>>>>> Not for witnessed events of great severity as some of the "what would 
>>>>>> you do" discussions of awhile ago, where there was a scenario 
>>>>>> involving one guide dog attacking another and causing injury and 
>>>>>> another involving a guide dog user reportedly regularly blowing a 
>>>>>> street crossing so badly as to cause risk of traffic accidents in 
>>>>>> addition to putting himself and his dog in danger. In those, I think 
>>>>>> a few people raised the notion of getting in touch with the guide dog 
>>>>>> user's school but I don't remember that there was a consensus that 
>>>>>> this would be an appropriate course of action. They were "what if" 
>>>>>> questions, so no consensus was needed. /smile/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, I'm pretty shocked to learn that there are guide dog users 
>>>>>> who will report other guide dog users for blurbs on e-mail discussion 
>>>>>> lists. Not this one, but it recently happened. And now I find out it 
>>>>>> has happened before, with the same group of people doing the 
>>>>>> reporting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, let's say that I mention in that group that Mitzi did X in random 
>>>>>> chatter, thinking I was among friends. Suddenly, some people are 
>>>>>> asking me questions, which I answer to clear things up... Then they 
>>>>>> start insist that I said something 3 months ago that contradicts what 
>>>>>> I just said about what Mitzi did yesterday, and then I get upset and 
>>>>>> rattled and try to clear things up.... So then there's blood in the 
>>>>>> water.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Next thing I know, I get a letter from my trainer about what I said 
>>>>>> on the list and then another one which is where I find out people 
>>>>>> from this group have been getting in touch with him/her repeatedly 
>>>>>> about how they're helping me but I won't listen and stuff like that, 
>>>>>> because I don't do exactly what they tell me to do faithfully no 
>>>>>> matter what it is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since I know the people involved and the dog in question fairly well, 
>>>>>> I wasn't surprised by the verbal attack by a certain few members of 
>>>>>> the group. Sigh. Maybe they do think they're helping, but... Um... 
>>>>>> Oh, well. I was just shocked to learn that one or more of them would 
>>>>>> go so far as to call the trainer on another user because of a blip on 
>>>>>> a list. Sheesh! I guess that this actually goes on in that group. 
>>>>>> Heavens! Oddly, the "helpers" there chat a lot on that list and go to 
>>>>>> the same school and have the same trainer... Which makes me wonder if 
>>>>>> they should get a great big van and fill it with crates and take the 
>>>>>> whole lot of dogs back to school. /lol/ I'm delving in sarcasm there, 
>>>>>> but the list of things I can recall that these helpful guide dog 
>>>>>> users have reported their dogs getting up to are fairly amazing. 
>>>>>> They're all relatively new dogs, young dogs, so I tend to figure the 
>>>>>> handlers are getting it worked out and can figure out for themselves 
>>>>>> if they need to contact the trainer. But, I guess, If I were to 
>>>>>> follow their fine example... No, of course, I won't do that. That's 
>>>>>> just so... Tacky! /lol/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So my question is: Does this actually go on? Do guide dog users 
>>>>>> report other guide dog users just to be manipulative and retaliatory 
>>>>>> or whatever? Even if it's clearly stated that the guide dog user they 
>>>>>> are reporting is in contact with the trainer over the matter they 
>>>>>> mention?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, I'm suddenly feeling really smug that if any of these folks 
>>>>>> want to report me to my trainer, they are welcome to! My trainer will 
>>>>>> treat their reports with all the attention they deserve.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh, they've helped me, too! By explaining sternly that I should never 
>>>>>> stick sharp metal implements into my poodle's ear canals... I'm not 
>>>>>> making that up. I mean, that is a true statement, I can agree to 
>>>>>> that. However... Do I *look* that stupid? /lol/ I kinda figured that 
>>>>>> one out on my own years ago, so I don't know that telling me to do 
>>>>>> something I know better than to do is helpful. I've been helped to 
>>>>>> understand the bus routes around my home. Again, apparently, I really 
>>>>>> am too stupid to work that out on my own somehow... Sheesh!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So I haven't fallen all over myself in gratitude or listened, 
>>>>>> really... So I could be reported, I am sure! Well, and I don't have a 
>>>>>> certified guide, no ID card to flash... Why would I owner-train when 
>>>>>> I could get a certified guide dog? Um... For those who are relatively 
>>>>>> new enough to have not read any of those discussions, there is no 
>>>>>> such thing as a certified guide dog in terms of the ADA and access to 
>>>>>> places of public accommodation. The guide dog training programs must 
>>>>>> be certified for the consumer's protection. The trainers must also be 
>>>>>> certified to work at the certified guide dog training program. The 
>>>>>> dogs are not certified. The nice ID cards often have the relevant 
>>>>>> portions of the law printed on them, which does make them useful. 
>>>>>> They do not grant you access to anything at all, and it is illegal 
>>>>>> for anyone to ask you to show them. /smile/ It's your dog's training 
>>>>>> for your disability that counts, and your dog's good behavior, etc., 
>>>>>> once you walk into a place. But I have a feeling I am being "taught 
>>>>>> by example" for being the other guide dog user's friend and for being 
>>>>>> an owner-trainer by having things addressed to me that make a point 
>>>>>> of mentioning the flashing of ID cards. /lol/ I've never even said 
>>>>>> there what I *really* think of that practice! It's anyone's choice 
>>>>>> what they do with the ID card from their school, so why get uptight 
>>>>>> about it? /lol/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tami
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
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