[nagdu] Third party reporting by other guide dog users

Larry D. Keeler lkeeler at comcast.net
Tue Jun 12 22:42:22 UTC 2012 

See, You can get lost with a dog!  Actually, there some people who think 
you'll never get lost if you have a guide dog.  What are they smoking!  And, 
you picked a really warm weekend as well!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "rhonda cruz" <rhondaprincess at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Third party reporting by other guide dog users


> hey larry yes, i've all ready gotten lost, smile. it is nice to be here.
>
> may is kicken back,
> and etc.
>
> i mite stop and see ray, and steve. etc.
>
>
> On Jun 12, 2012, at 1:17 PM, Larry D. Keeler wrote:
>
>> Yah, you would say that sence its the same one!  Just kidding. Are you 
>> stil in Columbus?
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "rhonda cruz" 
>> <rhondaprincess at gmail.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 1:10 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Third party reporting by other guide dog users
>>
>>
>>> I also had a wonderful experience at my school as well,
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 12, 2012, at 9:10 AM, Larry D. Keeler wrote:
>>>
>>>> No wonder you are sort of gun shy when it comes to guide dogs and 
>>>> services! If I'd had such an experience I would have put my horns and 
>>>> little red cape on!  I've had a wonderful experience with my school and 
>>>> also with other school representatives at conventions.
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jenny Keller" <jlperdue3 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:05 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Third party reporting by other guide dog users
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Lyn,
>>>>>
>>>>> the school didn't call me that.  It was someone on another guide dog 
>>>>> list that called me that and they threatened that if they found out 
>>>>> what school I applied to, they would insure I never got a guide dog 
>>>>> again.
>>>>>
>>>>> also, I called TSE about applying for a dog and asked the, after 
>>>>> explaining a little bit that I had problems with Southeastern and that 
>>>>> they would not have anything good to say about me.  I asked them if 
>>>>> that would be a factor in my application.
>>>>>
>>>>> they came out and said that they would talk to Southeaster, and I know 
>>>>> they do, because when I applied to them the first tie, they told 
>>>>> Southeastern that I had applied and that's when Southeastern lied and 
>>>>> said that they trained Brooks specifically for me.  Which I found out 
>>>>> from a woman who graduated a month before I came to class, that they 
>>>>> offered Brooks to her during her class training and she would've taken 
>>>>> him home had he been a female.  So obviously the training him 
>>>>> specifically for e was a load of crap in order to make me feel 
>>>>> obligated to come back to their school.
>>>>>
>>>>> they also told me that another trainer, who had worked with me during 
>>>>> my first class trained him for most of his training.  I found out from 
>>>>> that same woman, that another trainer entirely trained him.
>>>>>
>>>>> I gushed, when I went to the school, about how grateful I was to that 
>>>>> trainer who actually did all of his training, about how grateful I was 
>>>>> about my former trainer training him specifically for me, and they 
>>>>> still went on with the lie, to my face about who trained him.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dirty and deceitful.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jenny
>>>>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Lyn Gwizdak wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Jenny,
>>>>>> To me, if a school will reject a prospective student based on 
>>>>>> hearsay, they ain't worth it.  Staff from a decent school will always 
>>>>>> give a person the benefit of the doubt and determine - after meeting 
>>>>>> said applicant, doing a Juno walk with said applicant - to determine 
>>>>>> if that applicant would be sucessful in their program.  Period. 
>>>>>> Seeing Eye is such a school.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So what did your former school threaten you with had you gone ahead 
>>>>>> and applied to Seeing Eye?  What could they do to you?  If they 
>>>>>> talked smack about you to another school you applied to and that 
>>>>>> school turned you down based on that and never even interacting with 
>>>>>> you, well, that school ain't worth it.  Don't let anyone cow you. 
>>>>>> That school acted like a bully as far as I can tell from what you 
>>>>>> said happened.  Bullies MUST be stood up to. Get allies if you need 
>>>>>> to, but STAND UP to them. Did that school actually come out and call 
>>>>>> you a b***t?  That sure was very sexist of them if they did.  That is 
>>>>>> a common slur towards any female who stands up for herself. Call them 
>>>>>> on that as well. You deserve respect and nothing less and don't let 
>>>>>> anyone tell you otherwise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hope that you have much better luck with the school you have 
>>>>>> applied to and get a good dog.  There is a dog out there for you and 
>>>>>> you just have yet to meet it! (grin!)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jenny Keller" 
>>>>>> <jlperdue3 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 1:05 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Third party reporting by other guide dog users
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To answer your question.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> YES when I was having issues with my former guide last Easter and 
>>>>>>> had to retire him.  I told the list what had happened and let them 
>>>>>>> know that the school I had gotten the dog from had done some dirty 
>>>>>>> manipulation to get me to come back there after I had applied 
>>>>>>> somewhere else and they found out about it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> there were threats made that if they found out what guide dog school 
>>>>>>> I had applied to now, that they would assure that I never got a 
>>>>>>> guide dog again, and that I was a horrible handler, and that I was a 
>>>>>>> B***h and that I never should've been given a dog in the first 
>>>>>>> place.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The person that received that threat is on this list, though I will 
>>>>>>> not mention their name for their privacy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> there are people who think they know best and will certainly stick 
>>>>>>> their noses where it doesn't belong because they think they know 
>>>>>>> best.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is important to watch what you say on any list.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jenny
>>>>>>> On Jun 9, 2012, at 12:30 PM, Tami Kinney wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My question is this: Do guide dog users routinely report other 
>>>>>>>> guide dog users to their training program and trainer for minor 
>>>>>>>> mishaps mentioned on discussion lists. Or because the guide dog 
>>>>>>>> user being reported doesn't use the collar the reporter believes 
>>>>>>>> they should use, stuff like that? And do they do it in a way that 
>>>>>>>> makes the one they are reporting sound super irresponsible and 
>>>>>>>> unwilling to listen to help? For that matter, would most trainers 
>>>>>>>> take these reports seriously, over the information given by the 
>>>>>>>> guide dog user who has been reported to them?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Okay, here's my long explanation behind the questions:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since I'm an owner-trainer, the notion that another guide dog user 
>>>>>>>> might report me to my trainer for any reason has never troubled my 
>>>>>>>> fluffy little head before.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Only I recently found out that this sort of thing actually happens! 
>>>>>>>> Not for witnessed events of great severity as some of the "what 
>>>>>>>> would you do" discussions of awhile ago, where there was a scenario 
>>>>>>>> involving one guide dog attacking another and causing injury and 
>>>>>>>> another involving a guide dog user reportedly regularly blowing a 
>>>>>>>> street crossing so badly as to cause risk of traffic accidents in 
>>>>>>>> addition to putting himself and his dog in danger. In those, I 
>>>>>>>> think a few people raised the notion of getting in touch with the 
>>>>>>>> guide dog user's school but I don't remember that there was a 
>>>>>>>> consensus that this would be an appropriate course of action. They 
>>>>>>>> were "what if" questions, so no consensus was needed. /smile/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyway, I'm pretty shocked to learn that there are guide dog users 
>>>>>>>> who will report other guide dog users for blurbs on e-mail 
>>>>>>>> discussion lists. Not this one, but it recently happened. And now I 
>>>>>>>> find out it has happened before, with the same group of people 
>>>>>>>> doing the reporting.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, let's say that I mention in that group that Mitzi did X in 
>>>>>>>> random chatter, thinking I was among friends. Suddenly, some people 
>>>>>>>> are asking me questions, which I answer to clear things up... Then 
>>>>>>>> they start insist that I said something 3 months ago that 
>>>>>>>> contradicts what I just said about what Mitzi did yesterday, and 
>>>>>>>> then I get upset and rattled and try to clear things up.... So then 
>>>>>>>> there's blood in the water.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Next thing I know, I get a letter from my trainer about what I said 
>>>>>>>> on the list and then another one which is where I find out people 
>>>>>>>> from this group have been getting in touch with him/her repeatedly 
>>>>>>>> about how they're helping me but I won't listen and stuff like 
>>>>>>>> that, because I don't do exactly what they tell me to do faithfully 
>>>>>>>> no matter what it is.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since I know the people involved and the dog in question fairly 
>>>>>>>> well, I wasn't surprised by the verbal attack by a certain few 
>>>>>>>> members of the group. Sigh. Maybe they do think they're helping, 
>>>>>>>> but... Um... Oh, well. I was just shocked to learn that one or more 
>>>>>>>> of them would go so far as to call the trainer on another user 
>>>>>>>> because of a blip on a list. Sheesh! I guess that this actually 
>>>>>>>> goes on in that group. Heavens! Oddly, the "helpers" there chat a 
>>>>>>>> lot on that list and go to the same school and have the same 
>>>>>>>> trainer... Which makes me wonder if they should get a great big van 
>>>>>>>> and fill it with crates and take the whole lot of dogs back to 
>>>>>>>> school. /lol/ I'm delving in sarcasm there, but the list of things 
>>>>>>>> I can recall that these helpful guide dog users have reported their 
>>>>>>>> dogs getting up to are fairly amazing. They're all relatively new 
>>>>>>>> dogs, young dogs, so I tend to figure the handlers are getting it 
>>>>>>>> worked out and can figure out for themselves if they need to 
>>>>>>>> contact the trainer. But, I guess, If I were to follow their fine 
>>>>>>>> example... No, of course, I won't do that. That's just so... Tacky! 
>>>>>>>> /lol/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So my question is: Does this actually go on? Do guide dog users 
>>>>>>>> report other guide dog users just to be manipulative and 
>>>>>>>> retaliatory or whatever? Even if it's clearly stated that the guide 
>>>>>>>> dog user they are reporting is in contact with the trainer over the 
>>>>>>>> matter they mention?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, I'm suddenly feeling really smug that if any of these folks 
>>>>>>>> want to report me to my trainer, they are welcome to! My trainer 
>>>>>>>> will treat their reports with all the attention they deserve.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Oh, they've helped me, too! By explaining sternly that I should 
>>>>>>>> never stick sharp metal implements into my poodle's ear canals... 
>>>>>>>> I'm not making that up. I mean, that is a true statement, I can 
>>>>>>>> agree to that. However... Do I *look* that stupid? /lol/ I kinda 
>>>>>>>> figured that one out on my own years ago, so I don't know that 
>>>>>>>> telling me to do something I know better than to do is helpful. 
>>>>>>>> I've been helped to understand the bus routes around my home. 
>>>>>>>> Again, apparently, I really am too stupid to work that out on my 
>>>>>>>> own somehow... Sheesh!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So I haven't fallen all over myself in gratitude or listened, 
>>>>>>>> really... So I could be reported, I am sure! Well, and I don't have 
>>>>>>>> a certified guide, no ID card to flash... Why would I owner-train 
>>>>>>>> when I could get a certified guide dog? Um... For those who are 
>>>>>>>> relatively new enough to have not read any of those discussions, 
>>>>>>>> there is no such thing as a certified guide dog in terms of the ADA 
>>>>>>>> and access to places of public accommodation. The guide dog 
>>>>>>>> training programs must be certified for the consumer's protection. 
>>>>>>>> The trainers must also be certified to work at the certified guide 
>>>>>>>> dog training program. The dogs are not certified. The nice ID cards 
>>>>>>>> often have the relevant portions of the law printed on them, which 
>>>>>>>> does make them useful. They do not grant you access to anything at 
>>>>>>>> all, and it is illegal for anyone to ask you to show them. /smile/ 
>>>>>>>> It's your dog's training for your disability that counts, and your 
>>>>>>>> dog's good behavior, etc., once you walk into a place. But I have a 
>>>>>>>> feeling I am being "taught by example" for being the other guide 
>>>>>>>> dog user's friend and for being an owner-trainer by having things 
>>>>>>>> addressed to me that make a point of mentioning the flashing of ID 
>>>>>>>> cards. /lol/ I've never even said there what I *really* think of 
>>>>>>>> that practice! It's anyone's choice what they do with the ID card 
>>>>>>>> from their school, so why get uptight about it? /lol/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tami
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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