[nagdu] Third party reporting by other guide dog users

Jenny Keller jlperdue3 at gmail.com
Thu Jun 14 17:12:52 UTC 2012


Hi Lin,

they didn't make threats to me personally.  They made those threats to someone else, who is on this list, but out of respect, I won't mention their name.  

I don't know if they still have that email, but i know that the school I have chosen knows about the situations with all three dogs, and Southeastern as a whole, and they are not concerned with my ability to be a good handler.  they also said that what Southeastern did was dirty and unethical, so all is out in the open and the school I applied to is quite disgusted with Southeastern and what they did to me.

thanks for the vote of confidence, and I know that eventually, I will be able to get a dog I can trust.

I never really could trust Brooks because of the right side clearance issues, so I don't know how I will learn to fully trust a dog to begin with.  

I'm going to try to go under sleep shade during my training to learn how to fully trust my dog, by my own choice.  I just know though, that it will be very, very frightening for me since none of the dogs I worked with were trustworthy.

Keep me in your prayers.

Jenny
On Jun 13, 2012, at 6:08 PM, Lyn Gwizdak wrote:

> OK, Jen, glad it wasn't the school that said that.  Now, if the school - Southeastern or other ones - denied you BASED on the smack said by a lister, then what I said still stands - the school wouldn't be worth it.
> 
> Do you have the post where the person threatened you with trying to ensure you wouldn't get a dog from any school after they got done with you?  If so, KEEP IT.  Apply to another school and if this person's words come up if you got denied by a school, you then might like to show it to a lawyer.  You may be able to get that lister by the you-know-whats with a nice libel suit.
> 
> The school you have selected to get your next dog from should base ALL its decisions on what they see and observe when you have your visit and during the application process - including your references and medical report.  A school worth its salt shouldn't base acceptance of applicant based on crap from some disgruntled person with an ax to grind.  Thus, I consider very carefully before I report anyone to his or her school - it's a serious matter.
> 
> I would tell the school about what happened with Brooks, the other dogs you had, and your experiences with Southeastern so they hear it from you and not some other party.
> 
> Back in 1996, I had a similar problem - only it was before there were listservs - where some local busybodies tried to make it impossible for me to get another guide dog for all sorts of unfounded reasons other than I wasn't a person to be bullied and I wasn't amused by their antics and they couldn't control me.  So, I know how you feel about people doing this to you - been there; done that.  I solved that little problem by going to Seeing Eye, telling them about the problem and the "problem children", and then giving them a list of names of the people involved. I think that list remains in my Seeing Eye file and there has been no more peep from that peanut gallery! LOL!
> 
> Hope all works oout with your getting a great dog.
> 
> Lyn and Landon
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jenny Keller" <jlperdue3 at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Third party reporting by other guide dog users
> 
> 
>> Hi Lyn,
>> 
>> the school didn't call me that.  It was someone on another guide dog list that called me that and they threatened that if they found out what school I applied to, they would insure I never got a guide dog again.
>> 
>> also, I called TSE about applying for a dog and asked the, after explaining a little bit that I had problems with Southeastern and that they would not have anything good to say about me.  I asked them if that would be a factor in my application.
>> 
>> they came out and said that they would talk to Southeaster, and I know they do, because when I applied to them the first tie, they told Southeastern that I had applied and that's when Southeastern lied and said that they trained Brooks specifically for me.  Which I found out from a woman who graduated a month before I came to class, that they offered Brooks to her during her class training and she would've taken him home had he been a female.  So obviously the training him specifically for e was a load of crap in order to make me feel obligated to come back to their school.
>> 
>> they also told me that another trainer, who had worked with me during my first class trained him for most of his training.  I found out from that same woman, that another trainer entirely trained him.
>> 
>> I gushed, when I went to the school, about how grateful I was to that trainer who actually did all of his training, about how grateful I was about my former trainer training him specifically for me, and they still went on with the lie, to my face about who trained him.
>> 
>> Dirty and deceitful.
>> 
>> Jenny
>> On Jun 10, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Lyn Gwizdak wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Jenny,
>>> To me, if a school will reject a prospective student based on hearsay, they ain't worth it.  Staff from a decent school will always give a person the benefit of the doubt and determine - after meeting said applicant, doing a Juno walk with said applicant - to determine if that applicant would be sucessful in their program.  Period.  Seeing Eye is such a school.
>>> 
>>> So what did your former school threaten you with had you gone ahead and applied to Seeing Eye?  What could they do to you?  If they talked smack about you to another school you applied to and that school turned you down based on that and never even interacting with you, well, that school ain't worth it.  Don't let anyone cow you.  That school acted like a bully as far as I can tell from what you said happened.  Bullies MUST be stood up to. Get allies if you need to, but STAND UP to them.  Did that school actually come out and call you a b***t?  That sure was very sexist of them if they did.  That is a common slur towards any female who stands up for herself. Call them on that as well. You deserve respect and nothing less and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
>>> 
>>> I hope that you have much better luck with the school you have applied to and get a good dog.  There is a dog out there for you and you just have yet to meet it! (grin!)
>>> 
>>> Lyn and Landon
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jenny Keller" <jlperdue3 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 1:05 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Third party reporting by other guide dog users
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> To answer your question.
>>>> 
>>>> YES when I was having issues with my former guide last Easter and had to retire him.  I told the list what had happened and let them know that the school I had gotten the dog from had done some dirty manipulation to get me to come back there after I had applied somewhere else and they found out about it.
>>>> 
>>>> there were threats made that if they found out what guide dog school I had applied to now, that they would assure that I never got a guide dog again, and that I was a horrible handler, and that I was a B***h and that I never should've been given a dog in the first place.
>>>> 
>>>> The person that received that threat is on this list, though I will not mention their name for their privacy.
>>>> 
>>>> there are people who think they know best and will certainly stick their noses where it doesn't belong because they think they know best.
>>>> 
>>>> It is important to watch what you say on any list.
>>>> 
>>>> Jenny
>>>> On Jun 9, 2012, at 12:30 PM, Tami Kinney wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> My question is this: Do guide dog users routinely report other guide dog users to their training program and trainer for minor mishaps mentioned on discussion lists. Or because the guide dog user being reported doesn't use the collar the reporter believes they should use, stuff like that? And do they do it in a way that makes the one they are reporting sound super irresponsible and unwilling to listen to help? For that matter, would most trainers take these reports seriously, over the information given by the guide dog user who has been reported to them?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Okay, here's my long explanation behind the questions:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Since I'm an owner-trainer, the notion that another guide dog user might report me to my trainer for any reason has never troubled my fluffy little head before.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Only I recently found out that this sort of thing actually happens! Not for witnessed events of great severity as some of the "what would you do" discussions of awhile ago, where there was a scenario involving one guide dog attacking another and causing injury and another involving a guide dog user reportedly regularly blowing a street crossing so badly as to cause risk of traffic accidents in addition to putting himself and his dog in danger. In those, I think a few people raised the notion of getting in touch with the guide dog user's school but I don't remember that there was a consensus that this would be an appropriate course of action. They were "what if" questions, so no consensus was needed. /smile/
>>>>> 
>>>>> Anyway, I'm pretty shocked to learn that there are guide dog users who will report other guide dog users for blurbs on e-mail discussion lists. Not this one, but it recently happened. And now I find out it has happened before, with the same group of people doing the reporting.
>>>>> 
>>>>> So, let's say that I mention in that group that Mitzi did X in random chatter, thinking I was among friends. Suddenly, some people are asking me questions, which I answer to clear things up... Then they start insist that I said something 3 months ago that contradicts what I just said about what Mitzi did yesterday, and then I get upset and rattled and try to clear things up.... So then there's blood in the water.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Next thing I know, I get a letter from my trainer about what I said on the list and then another one which is where I find out people from this group have been getting in touch with him/her repeatedly about how they're helping me but I won't listen and stuff like that, because I don't do exactly what they tell me to do faithfully no matter what it is.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Since I know the people involved and the dog in question fairly well, I wasn't surprised by the verbal attack by a certain few members of the group. Sigh. Maybe they do think they're helping, but... Um... Oh, well. I was just shocked to learn that one or more of them would go so far as to call the trainer on another user because of a blip on a list. Sheesh! I guess that this actually goes on in that group. Heavens! Oddly, the "helpers" there chat a lot on that list and go to the same school and have the same trainer... Which makes me wonder if they should get a great big van and fill it with crates and take the whole lot of dogs back to school. /lol/ I'm delving in sarcasm there, but the list of things I can recall that these helpful guide dog users have reported their dogs getting up to are fairly amazing. They're all relatively new dogs, young dogs, so I tend to figure the handlers are getting it worked out and can figure out for themselves if they need to contact the trainer. But, I guess, If I were to follow their fine example... No, of course, I won't do that. That's just so... Tacky! /lol/
>>>>> 
>>>>> So my question is: Does this actually go on? Do guide dog users report other guide dog users just to be manipulative and retaliatory or whatever? Even if it's clearly stated that the guide dog user they are reporting is in contact with the trainer over the matter they mention?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Well, I'm suddenly feeling really smug that if any of these folks want to report me to my trainer, they are welcome to! My trainer will treat their reports with all the attention they deserve.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Oh, they've helped me, too! By explaining sternly that I should never stick sharp metal implements into my poodle's ear canals... I'm not making that up. I mean, that is a true statement, I can agree to that. However... Do I *look* that stupid? /lol/ I kinda figured that one out on my own years ago, so I don't know that telling me to do something I know better than to do is helpful. I've been helped to understand the bus routes around my home. Again, apparently, I really am too stupid to work that out on my own somehow... Sheesh!
>>>>> 
>>>>> So I haven't fallen all over myself in gratitude or listened, really... So I could be reported, I am sure! Well, and I don't have a certified guide, no ID card to flash... Why would I owner-train when I could get a certified guide dog? Um... For those who are relatively new enough to have not read any of those discussions, there is no such thing as a certified guide dog in terms of the ADA and access to places of public accommodation. The guide dog training programs must be certified for the consumer's protection. The trainers must also be certified to work at the certified guide dog training program. The dogs are not certified. The nice ID cards often have the relevant portions of the law printed on them, which does make them useful. They do not grant you access to anything at all, and it is illegal for anyone to ask you to show them. /smile/ It's your dog's training for your disability that counts, and your dog's good behavior, etc., once you walk into a place. But I have a feeling I am being "taught by example" for being the other guide dog user's friend and for being an owner-trainer by having things addressed to me that make a point of mentioning the flashing of ID cards. /lol/ I've never even said there what I *really* think of that practice! It's anyone's choice what they do with the ID card from their school, so why get uptight about it? /lol/
>>>>> 
>>>>> Tami
>>>>> 
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