[nagdu] cooperation vs. force

Thu Mar 1 13:26:03 UTC 2012

Robert,

I'm not even sure I understand the issue! *smile*  It's like I have this 
queasy feeling in the pit of my stomach when I read messages that say 
things like, "don't let your dog get away with X", or "you should give 
your dog a high collar correction for Y"  or "he's playing games with 
you, correct him".  It all feels like  a need to assert that the human 
is more powerful and the dominant one.

I understand that many people feel this way, that the humans are the 
dominant member of the pack and need to assert that authority at every 
opportunity.  I used to believe that way and many of the things I do 
today are habits from that way of thinking.  It's just been over the 
past few years that I'm coming to understand that there are different 
ways of thinking and different ways of interacting with dogs.

Two books that I've read recently that have got me to thinking more than 
usual about this dilemma are, "Bones Would Rain from the Sky" by Susan 
Clothier,  and "Merl's Door" forgot the author.  I agree with Susan 
quite a bit and "Merl's Door has some concepts to ponder, although I 
can't quite embrace the choices the author puts forth.

And to make sure you understand I'm not picking on you or saying that 
how you handle your dog is wrong.  I don't mean to put anyone on the 
spot.  I just wanted to bring up the concept of how we view our dogs, 
partners, subservient, bio machines, little people in fur coats or 
something else for discussion.  I think how we view our relationship 
with our dog on a deep psychological level directly influences how we 
interact with dogs.

My example of off leash running wasn't meant to suggest that others 
should do this.  Just that for me, letting Monty run off leash for the 
first time was a turning point in our relationship.  It was a meaningful 
moment for me.   It was then that I truly realized that I could trust 
him, that he had chosen me as much as I had chosen him and that I need 
to let go.  I had to stop trying to control him so much and let him "run 
free" so to speak in other areas of our work so he could show me that he 
was trustworthy.  I didn't realize until that moment that some part of 
me was expecting him to fail.  By giving him no opportunities to mess up 
I was deluding myself into thinking that I could prevent this failure.  
Only by giving him a chance to choose whether or not to mess up or 
cooperate with me could he truly cooperate. Cooperation can't be 
controlled or forced.  It must come as a free will donation of the heart.

I hope I am making a bit more sense the more I write.  I feel like I'm 
getting closer to the core of the issue.  I look forward to hearing what 
other think about this.
Julie

On 2/29/2012 5:42 PM, Robert Hooper wrote:
> Hello again Julie:
>
> Another excellent message. I really wish I could let my dog off leash to run--he so loves to run and chase. I imagine myself in a giant, perfectly fenced area throwing things for him to retrieve. However, the university housing complex is situated very near a road--it's a suburban area with no fencing whatsoever. For me, the risks far outweigh the benefits; I have a virtually nonexistent yard and if I were to throw something, the dog would most likely end up on another's "lawn", something I have no right to allow. I've thought several times about letting him off at my grandmother's house, who does have a large property, but she too is near a moderately busy roadway--at least, it's busy for a country road.
> As for corrections, I only correct if I believe that the dog 110% knows what the command is and is distracted or just refusing to listen. Of course, I take the circumstances into consideration. I will not correct him if he refuses to go forward--I will thoroughly investigate why he chooses not too--free choice is one of the things that makes a dog so effective as a guide. I agree that a dog should do things because it wants to do them rather than out of fear, but dogs have a very limited ability to reason. Maybe Bailey is excited that we're going for a walk and he doesn't want to sit--he is distracted and doesn't listen to my commands. I will give two "sit" commands, the second more firm than the first--if he doesn't comply, I will administer a correction and tell him to sit--if he does so, I will praise and scratch him. This is just one example of the way I work with him. I believe that it would be nice to have a dog that only refuses when they believe they have good reason to do so--however, a good reason to refuse a command to a dog isn't always acceptable to the master. Maybe Bailey is tired and doesn't want to "up". Maybe he feels that the praise I would give isn't good enough at that time. To a dog, that may be a good reason--or maybe there is an interesting smell coming from 200 yards away on which he would rather concentrate. So, it is primarily up to the human part of the machine to determine if it is reasonable to give a command and have it followed. Yes, maybe the dog has a valid reason for refusal which should be determined before any correction, however it should be mostly up to the human to determine whether such a reason exists before even issuing the command.
> I hold this true save for things like street crossings--I give the dog much more choice here and hope that he will make the right decision as to go or not. Hopefully, I will one day have a safe environment in which Bailey can run to his heart's content. At the moment, however, I believe that it would be a recipe for disaster. I am just a block from a major city street which constantly has cars zooming along at 60. You can see the disaster. Anyway, I look forward to your response--I hope I am understanding the issue.
>
>
> Robert Hooper
> Hooper.90 at buckeyemail.osu.edu
> The Ohio State University
> 0653 Buckeye-Cuyahoga CT
> 653 Cuyahoga Court
> Columbus, Ohio 43210
> (740) 856-8195
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
> Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 1:59 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] cooperation vs. force
>
> Cindy,
>
> I think the crux of the issue I'm trying to get to is freedom for the dog.  Crates are a wonderful thing.  Leashes are too.  Rules are important for all of us.  But what bothers me or at least what I find myself coming back to time and again is this idea of micromanaging our dogs to the point that they have no freedom, no choice and no ability to just be.
>
> The idea that I am doing something for the good of the dog gives me shivers sometimes.  Sure taking away an electrical cord the dog is chewing on is for the good of the dog. Feeding a nutritious high quality food is for the good of the dog.  However there are loads and loads of things we lump into this category of "good for the dog", but how do we
> know that is really true?   It brings me back to institutions for
> disabled people because they were for our own good.  The days when it was contributory negligence for a blind person to be out alone because it was for our own good.  Sure people and dogs aren't the same, but I can't help wondering about some of the things I do, telling myself it is for the good of the dog.
>
> Monty is a very high energy dog.  He loves running, sniffing and chasing small furry things.  I knew he would love to run free out near our farm pond.  I also knew the risk of letting him run off leash.  I struggled with it for a long time before letting him run free.  I was so nervous the first time.  Is he running for the road?  Is he going near the pond?  Is he going to get into a scrap with a small furry animal that
> doesn't want to be chased?   Is he okay?  And yes, even though Monty has
> an amazing recall there was a part of me that feared him running off into the sunset in search of something better.
>
> In the end it all worked out.  He is fine off leash.  He loves the
> experience and has never gotten himself into trouble of any variety.
> The benefit to him to run off leash has far outweighed the risk of letting him do so, at least to me. However for a long time I told myself that it was for his own good that I didn't let him or other dogs run off leash. When I finally did unclip his leash and let him go, after the fear abated, I realized our relationship and just made a giant leap forward.  I have no words to express what it means to have a dog that will run and play and be totally free, but will come back to me in a moment's notice not because I told him to, but because he genuinely wants to be with me of his own free will.
>
> I'm not saying that everyone should go forth and let their dogs off leash to run amuck.  Belle is a good example of this being a sure recipe for a disaster of mega proportions.  I'm just saying that for me, I have a deep need in my soul to have a relationship with my dog that is based on freedom and choice.  I don't want to ever be in a position to have to force my dog to do anything.  I want them to trust and respect me so that I am able to ask them to do what I am wanting and they choose whether or not to do it.  If they refuse to do what I'm asking I want to know why.  Are they confused?  Not capable of doing the thing?  Telling me it's a stupid idea? Afraid? or something else.
>
> Anyhow, I'm prone to thinking too much and this is probably another instance where I have gotten lost in my own pondering. *smile*
>
> Julie
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2/29/2012 11:03 AM, Cindy Ray wrote:
>> I would say that many, though certainly not all, trainers will say that to keep them confined when you aren't there is as much for their protection as for your own well being. I suspect, too, that this depends on the dogs. Our dogs are confined at nights and are confined when we are gone; they expect it, though go to their kennels when asked to do so and are praised for having done it. I would like to find room for one more crate in order that I didn't tie fisher. We try not to leave them for hugely long periods of time, and they are only required do be there at night or during the day if we are both gone. I feel they have to be corrected when they have done something they should not, but more than that they must be hugely praised when they have done the right thing. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you have said, but I would say that we have a great relationship with all of these dogs.
>>
>> Cindy
>>
>> On Feb 29, 2012, at 10:58 AM, Julie J. wrote:
>>
>>> All the recent messages on this list and others concerning corrections, tie downs, muzzles etc. have me thinking.  Although I'm not absolutely opposed to corrections, confinement, muzzles or any other sort of punitive measure that comes to mind, it does make me wonder how the use of these affect the relationship with the dog.  To me the relationship I have with my dog is the most important thing.  If that is built from trust, cooperation and mutual respect then everything else will be fine.  I want a dog to want to be with me and work with me not out of fear of a punishment, but because he genuinely enjoys my company.  I want him to feel empowered to think for himself and to try new things.  I feel that too much use of punishment based interaction will hamper the ability for him to do these things.  I want him to learn self control so he can manage his own impulses out of a place of  confidence in his own choices rather than me micromanaging his life.
>>>
>>> I'm not explaining well.   I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think freedom of choice on the part of the dog is an important thing.  Too often I have fallen into the trap of micromanaging too much of my dog's lives, not allowing them any amount of freedom.  I regret that.  It is something that I have learned with Monty.  To truly trust a dog you have to give them opportunities to mess up so they can show you that they won't.
>>>
>>> Julie
>>>
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