[nagdu] Ownership of guide dog

Thu Mar 15 01:25:32 UTC 2012

I may have misunderstood what you were trying to say, and if I did, I'm sorry. Are you saying the dog should have to go back or shouldn't. If you are saying it makes sense that they would, then I would disagree respectfully.

Cindy

On Mar 14, 2012, at 6:58 PM, Brenda wrote:

> Marion
> I understand the reason behind returning a guide dog under 5 years old if the handler is unwilling or unable to use the dog as a guide.  But it seems to me this rule means the handler doesn't really have full ownership.  There have been posts on this lists about retaining harness and/or leash of a guide that has passed on versus returning it to the school as the equipment is a comfort to them.  A dog is a being and a family member.  If the handler dies or becomes unable to use the dog as a guide after bonding and bringing that animal into the family it must be returned to GDF just like a piece of equipment.  Not sure this is any different than the schools that retain ownership for one or two years and then give full ownership to the handler without requiring a return of the dog who has worked with the handler for less than 5 years.
> 
> Brenda
> 
> 
> 
> On 3/14/2012 2:56 PM, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
>> Lyn,
>>   I'm not really sure what you mean by "true ownership". Contracts are simply written agreements between parties entering into a cooperative relationships that outline the terms and conditions of that relationship. Written agreements help prevent disagreements between the parties and provide resolutions when disagreements arise. I have a written agreement with all of my consumers that put such things in writing as how close I must be to electrical outlets, how far I must be from spraying water, how much and when I will be paid, and penalties for breach of contract.
>>   The Guide Dog Foundation where I received training has transferred ownership of my dog to me on the condition that, should I be unable or unwilling to use him as a guide dog before he turns five years old, I will return him to the school so he can be placed with someone else. I was willing to sign such an agreement for the benefit of being provided community training, a service not offered by the other programs that transfer ownership. Though this is a string attached to my ownership, it is a string I agreed to. In spite of this one string, I still have complete ownership of my dog and GDF has no right to interfere with my ownership, with the exception of this provision.
>>   Guide Dogs of America also transfers full ownership of the dog upon completion of training and, I believe, so does Southeastern Guide Dogs.
>> 
>> fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyn Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 2:17 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>> 
>> 
>>> Also, the schools need to get rid of the contracts that must be signed before getting the dogs.  I find the contracts to be as offensive as the school retaining ownership.  The contracts are a "string" to real ownership.
>>> 
>>> I think Seeing Eye is the only school that I know of that has absolutely NO strings attached to ownership and is the only school that I know that has true ownership of the dog.  Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
>>> 
>>> Lyn and Landon
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brenda" <bjnite at windstream.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 12:12 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Hi Marion and list
>>>> I look forward to the completion of the NAGDU survey.  I never would have considered ownership an important issue until I started reading posts from this list.  Now, my first choices will be only full-ownership schools.  If I really find I like a school with a one or two year *probation* I may consider them, but I will focus on full-ownership schools.
>>>> 
>>>> I have one question - I thought GDF had something where if the handler dies within 5 years the dog must be returned to the school.  If this is true, this is not full ownership.  In this case, the family loses 2 members at once.  I'm not sure If I read this on the NAGDU list via a post or actually on GDF's web site.  I hope NAGDU finds out what the true story is on this.
>>>> 
>>>> Brenda
>>>> 
>>>> On 3/13/2012 7:47 AM, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
>>>>> Brenda,
>>>>>   NAGDU is in the process of conducting a survey of guide dog training programs and their policies. To the best of my knowledge, Guide Dogs of America (GDA), Guide Dog Foundation (GDF), Southeastern Guide dogs, and The Seeing Eye are the only programs that transfer ownership upon completion of training. GDF has the option of retaining ownership for a specified period of time in cases in which they are unsure if the match will work out. Their approach is one of having a trial period before making the decision. This is not their usual policy; rather an option to give the consumer the chance to see if it will work out. If there are any others, please let me know and, if possible, provide the ownership agreement.
>>>>>   I am of the opinion that retaining ownership of a dog for any period of time after completion of training as a matter of policy is founded in paternalism. It sends a message that the program has the belief blind people, as a group, must prove themselves worthy and competent of this privilege. The premise is wrong and offensive to me as a blind person. NAGDU is urging all training programs to transfer real ownership to the consumer upon completion of training and to implement due process policies for the repossession of the dog. to the best of my knowledge, none of the programs who retain ownership have any published due process for this purpose. Again, if my assertion is incorrect, please provide me with evidence of this.
>>>>> 
>>>>> fraternally yours,
>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brenda" <bjnite at windstream.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 9:18 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Can someone tell us the schools that have immediate ownership and those that have ownership after a year or two and those that retain ownership?The survey (can't remember the organization) of all the schools was done in 2006 and things have changed.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> then there is the issue of ownership if the handler passes on.  That dog becomes part of the family and the family loses two members at once. Not sure I like this in the case of one school if the team has been together less than 5 years.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In my research I have found only 2 schools giving full ownership and I don''t live in the right states for one of the schools.
>>>>>> Brenda
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 3/12/2012 8:46 AM, Cindy Ray wrote:
>>>>>>> It is a shame to see a pet fat and lazy, or a guide fat and lazy for that matter. If you have a pet, though, nobody takes it away from you. You own it. The school has recourse even if you own the dog; and dogs will be taken away from blind people if it is observed that they are abusing them. It has been done. Also, animal rights advocates will trounce on you all of the time for even using a dog for a guide. If I have a pet dog and can retain ownership of it right off, then the same should be true of my guide dog. Any time a pet or guide or any service animal goes out to an owner, the is potential for abuse. I don't want to see that and it is sad, but the school's retaining ownership of that dog doesn't really solve that issue so much.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
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