[nagdu] Ownership of guide dog

Tracy Carcione carcione at access.net
Fri Mar 23 15:42:23 UTC 2012


The contract really says she can't demonstrate the dog's skills?!  I
figure my dog is demonstrating his skills every time we go somewhere!  I
mean, anyone who wants to can watch us as we zip by, or admire his
quietness while we sit somewhere. Huh.
Tracy

> Hi Marion,
> You've probably have read my posts in the past about my experiences with
> guide dog school contracts and how it was used against me for
> "infractions"
> that I didn't do and the person who did them was totally out of my control
> yet I was held to the contract and then refused service from TWO schools
> for
> the same thing - yes the schools do talk to each other.
>
> I general, I have no problem with contracts between two people or entities
> -
> contracts are very necessary in today's world.  I have a problem in how
> guide dog schools use contracts to control its graduates.
>
> On another guide dog list, a person shared some of the clauses in their
> school's contract and there was a clause that forbade the graduates from
> demonstrating their dog's skills anywhere.  To me, this said that the
> graduates of this school cannot go into schools or clubs to educate about
> blindness and how a guide dog works. This is the crap I detest!
>
> Lyn and Landon
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 11:56 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>
>
>> Lyn,
>>    I'm not really sure what you mean by "true ownership". Contracts are
>> simply written agreements between parties entering into a cooperative
>> relationships that outline the terms and conditions of that
>> relationship.
>> Written agreements help prevent disagreements between the parties and
>> provide resolutions when disagreements arise. I have a written agreement
>> with all of my consumers that put such things in writing as how close I
>> must be to electrical outlets, how far I must be from spraying water,
>> how
>> much and when I will be paid, and penalties for breach of contract.
>>    The Guide Dog Foundation where I received training has transferred
>> ownership of my dog to me on the condition that, should I be unable or
>> unwilling to use him as a guide dog before he turns five years old, I
>> will
>> return him to the school so he can be placed with someone else. I was
>> willing to sign such an agreement for the benefit of being provided
>> community training, a service not offered by the other programs that
>> transfer ownership. Though this is a string attached to my ownership, it
>> is a string I agreed to. In spite of this one string, I still have
>> complete ownership of my dog and GDF has no right to interfere with my
>> ownership, with the exception of this provision.
>>    Guide Dogs of America also transfers full ownership of the dog upon
>> completion of training and, I believe, so does Southeastern Guide Dogs.
>>
>> fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Lyn Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 2:17 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>>
>>
>>> Also, the schools need to get rid of the contracts that must be signed
>>> before getting the dogs.  I find the contracts to be as offensive as
>>> the
>>> school retaining ownership.  The contracts are a "string" to real
>>> ownership.
>>>
>>> I think Seeing Eye is the only school that I know of that has
>>> absolutely
>>> NO strings attached to ownership and is the only school that I know
>>> that
>>> has true ownership of the dog.  Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
>>>
>>> Lyn and Landon
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Brenda" <bjnite at windstream.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 12:12 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Marion and list
>>>> I look forward to the completion of the NAGDU survey.  I never would
>>>> have considered ownership an important issue until I started reading
>>>> posts from this list.  Now, my first choices will be only
>>>> full-ownership
>>>> schools.  If I really find I like a school with a one or two year
>>>> *probation* I may consider them, but I will focus on full-ownership
>>>> schools.
>>>>
>>>> I have one question - I thought GDF had something where if the handler
>>>> dies within 5 years the dog must be returned to the school.  If this
>>>> is
>>>> true, this is not full ownership.  In this case, the family loses 2
>>>> members at once.  I'm not sure If I read this on the NAGDU list via a
>>>> post or actually on GDF's web site.  I hope NAGDU finds out what the
>>>> true story is on this.
>>>>
>>>> Brenda
>>>>
>>>> On 3/13/2012 7:47 AM, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
>>>>> Brenda,
>>>>>    NAGDU is in the process of conducting a survey of guide dog
>>>>> training
>>>>> programs and their policies. To the best of my knowledge, Guide Dogs
>>>>> of
>>>>> America (GDA), Guide Dog Foundation (GDF), Southeastern Guide dogs,
>>>>> and
>>>>> The Seeing Eye are the only programs that transfer ownership upon
>>>>> completion of training. GDF has the option of retaining ownership for
>>>>> a
>>>>> specified period of time in cases in which they are unsure if the
>>>>> match
>>>>> will work out. Their approach is one of having a trial period before
>>>>> making the decision. This is not their usual policy; rather an option
>>>>> to give the consumer the chance to see if it will work out. If there
>>>>> are any others, please let me know and, if possible, provide the
>>>>> ownership agreement.
>>>>>    I am of the opinion that retaining ownership of a dog for any
>>>>> period
>>>>> of time after completion of training as a matter of policy is founded
>>>>> in paternalism. It sends a message that the program has the belief
>>>>> blind people, as a group, must prove themselves worthy and competent
>>>>> of
>>>>> this privilege. The premise is wrong and offensive to me as a blind
>>>>> person. NAGDU is urging all training programs to transfer real
>>>>> ownership to the consumer upon completion of training and to
>>>>> implement
>>>>> due process policies for the repossession of the dog. to the best of
>>>>> my
>>>>> knowledge, none of the programs who retain ownership have any
>>>>> published
>>>>> due process for this purpose. Again, if my assertion is incorrect,
>>>>> please provide me with evidence of this.
>>>>>
>>>>> fraternally yours,
>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brenda" <bjnite at windstream.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 9:18 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership of guide dog
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Can someone tell us the schools that have immediate ownership and
>>>>>> those that have ownership after a year or two and those that retain
>>>>>> ownership?The survey (can't remember the organization) of all the
>>>>>> schools was done in 2006 and things have changed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> then there is the issue of ownership if the handler passes on.  That
>>>>>> dog becomes part of the family and the family loses two members at
>>>>>> once. Not sure I like this in the case of one school if the team has
>>>>>> been together less than 5 years.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my research I have found only 2 schools giving full ownership and
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> don''t live in the right states for one of the schools.
>>>>>> Brenda
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3/12/2012 8:46 AM, Cindy Ray wrote:
>>>>>>> It is a shame to see a pet fat and lazy, or a guide fat and lazy
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> that matter. If you have a pet, though, nobody takes it away from
>>>>>>> you. You own it. The school has recourse even if you own the dog;
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> dogs will be taken away from blind people if it is observed that
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> are abusing them. It has been done. Also, animal rights advocates
>>>>>>> will trounce on you all of the time for even using a dog for a
>>>>>>> guide.
>>>>>>> If I have a pet dog and can retain ownership of it right off, then
>>>>>>> the same should be true of my guide dog. Any time a pet or guide or
>>>>>>> any service animal goes out to an owner, the is potential for
>>>>>>> abuse.
>>>>>>> I don't want to see that and it is sad, but the school's retaining
>>>>>>> ownership of that dog doesn't really solve that issue so much.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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