[nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions

Michael Hingson info at michaelhingson.com
Mon Sep 3 05:03:51 UTC 2012


Hi Jenny,

I understand.  Although I am not a member of the LDS church we have housed
missionaries in our home when no other house was available for one reason or
another.  I have attended services in Mormon steak houses.

However, I still stand by my earlier comments.  It should be your choice
whether or not to bring your guide.  No one should request it.  If you
choose to bring your dog you should be able to do so.  Your expertise should
be the deciding factor.  If you are asked not to bring your dog then there
is an issue as far as I am concerned.

I recognize you have made your choice and that is perfectly fine.  However,
you did indicate that you were requested not to bring your guide into the
temple and this is not the way it should be.  Ultimately there is a gap here
no matter what the reason or motivation.


M.

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Jenny Keller
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 09:12 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions

I have to let all know, that the churches themselves of the Latter Day
Saints have no problems with my taking my dog or when I had a dog, into the
church itself.

the Temple, however is a totally different thing altogether.  I don't feel,
anymore, as though my dog was discriminated against once I have been inside
the temple.  There is so much that goes on there that the dog can be in the
way.  

I know, it's not something that people who have never been inside a Mormon
Temple would understand.  But that's the way it is.  I know a couple of
other Mormons who understand this too, and don't feel as though the church
discriminates against us.  

I want to say again, that inside the church, where everyone is welcome, so
is any guide dog.  It's only the Temple, where sacred things happen, that we
are asked not to bring our dogs.

The church has been quite accepting of me, my former dog, my future dog, and
my husband, who is also blind, but uses a cane.  

It is one of the only faiths I know that has 99.5 of their material in
accessible format.  so if they ask that we not bring our dog into the
Temple.  It's not something I'm thrilled about sometimes, because I don't
like to leave my dog at home when he or she wants to work, but it is a
request that I honor.

Jenny
On Sep 2, 2012, at 10:51 PM, Michael Hingson wrote:

> Thanks Debbie.  I should explain that since there is no legal 
> framework on which to fight a church's decision each individual must 
> decide whether or not to fight a battle with the church.  For my part, 
> whether or not I decide to attend church where a guide dog is not 
> welcome I will always remember the decision of the church and wonder if
today is the day to stand firm.
> 
> If my wife really wanted to attend a particular church and if that 
> organization did not permit my guide dog to come with me I might still 
> go to be with my wife and worship God.  I have not been confronted 
> with this dilemma, but I know others have.  Even if I decided to 
> attend I would make sure the public knew of the decision of the church.
> 
> Remember, any organization or block of people who does not find a 
> guide dog welcome is really saying that its blind handler is not 
> welcome.  He or she who denies my guide dog denies me.  Or, God does 
> not discriminate against guide dogs people do.
> 
> 
> Best,
> 
> 
> Michael Hingson
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of Debbie Cole
> Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 08:27 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions
> 
> *High 5's Michael
> 
> On 9/2/12, Michael Hingson <info at michaelhingson.com> wrote:
>> On the other hand, I believe a church which does not welcome a blind 
>> person with a guide dog is not being welcoming and is discriminating.
>> Martin Luther King JR. once said something like the most prejudicial 
>> hour of the week is Sunday at 11AM.  Legal or not a church should 
>> above all entities should welcome all including blind persons with 
>> guide
> dogs.
>> 
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> 
>> Michael Hingson
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>> Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 07:53 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions
>> 
>> Actually, the church is not required to allow you to bring your dog 
>> into their temple, so you may well be doing a good thing not to fight it.
>> 
>> Cindy Lou
>> 
>> On Sep 2, 2012, at 9:49 PM, Jenny Keller wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> Again, sorry to get to this thread so late.  but I wanted to say 
>>> that as a
>> member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which has 
>> been in the news a lot for our temples and such.  I am not allowed to 
>> bring him inside the temple.
>>> 
>>> I know, I could probably fight it.  but there are a lot of Mormons 
>>> who are
>> blind and have had, or do have guides, and we all, or most of us, 
>> have decided that the Holiness of the temple trumps our legal right 
>> to bring our dogs inside it.
>>> anyway, Have a great week, and my prayers and thoughts go out to 
>>> anyone on
>> this list directly, or having family affected, by Hurricane Isac.
>>> 
>>> Remember, there could've been guides and their handlers involved, 
>>> and they
>> need our thoughts and prayers.  Not only everyone else too.
>>> 
>>> Jenny
>>> On Aug 31, 2012, at 4:05 PM, Lyn Gwizdak wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Julie and Cindy,
>>>> These things show exactly why the schools tell us not to throw away 
>>>> our
>> canes or us to never use a cane again.  We have two mobility aids and 
>> we have the capability to use each one as needed and it's all good!
>>>> 
>>>> I don't take Landon if it is way too hot for him and I've left him 
>>>> for
>> some other things as well.  Recently, I left him home when I went to 
>> somebody's tiny bungalow home to make buttons and signs for Pride.
>> There were two small dogs and a TON of people crammed into that house 
>> and tiny patio out back.  I was glad not to have had Landon with me.
>> He literally would have had NO place to lie down where he wouldn't 
>> get
> stepped on!
>> Literally! LOL! I was glad to be able to work on our projects without 
>> worrying about him getting stepped on or fed junk by people who 
>> didn't know the rules.  Landon stayed home and snoozed and kept my 
>> sister company.  I didn't bring him to our CityFest event where I 
>> staffed my Democratic club's table.  It was SOOOOOO hot that day!  I 
>> did see some dogs there but not as many as usual for that event - and 
>> even some of
> those dogs wore booties!
>> Landon's comfort was much more important than his entertaining folks 
>> who came to our booth. He does this out of harness.  He deals well 
>> with visiting and then working because he is a certified therapy dog 
>> as well so he enjoys this alot.  I also leave him home alot when I 
>> grocery shop and need to take a cart on the bus.  Much easier with a 
>> cane.
>>>> 
>>>> Each person and dog need to do as they deem the right thing to do 
>>>> in any
>> circumstance and people shouldn't criticise each other for our choices.
>>>> 
>>>> Landon goes to funerals and he comforts people there - family 
>>>> members or
>> my friends - at the appropriate time.  I had him at my Dad's funeral 
>> last week at their church and later at my parents' house where we 
>> gathered afterwards. We will have another memorial in late October 
>> when the rest of our huge family can get there.  Landon will be there 
>> as
> well.
>>>> 
>>>> If I ride in private cars or visit private homes where I don't 
>>>> really
>> know the people, I will ask first before bringing Landon - just courtesy.
>> And most of the time, they say a resounding YES because most of the 
>> people I know love dogs and animals.
>>>> 
>>>> Everyone have a nice Labor Day.  Hope those of you in the path of 
>>>> TS
>> Isaac are safe and OK.  these storms can be so devastating!
>>>> 
>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 1:07 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of 
>>>> Questions
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> There are few places I don't take the dog. Sometimes when with my
>> daughter, I don't take him for a ride with us if we go for a drive. I 
>> will not take him to fireworks displays, and I stopped taking him 
>> when I went to the gym. However, before I ever got a dog, my husband 
>> at the time, Chuck Hallenbeck, said to me, "Think of all the places 
>> you wouldn't think you would use the dog and then use it anyway", or 
>> words to that effect. And that is what I've always done. It is 
>> interesting the differences in people's philosophy of where to use/take
the dog.
>> When I went to the Benedictine Retreat Center I went to in spring, if 
>> they had said I couldn't bring him, I would have been more amenable 
>> to that since I now understand that this is within their right.
>>>>> 
>>>>> CL
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Aug 31, 2012, at 1:04 PM, Julie J. wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I am going to the state fair this weekend.  the temps are 
>>>>>> supposed to
>> be in the 90's.  We are going to a tractor pull and then a concert.  
>> Monty has been to the state fair before, but he's staying home this 
>> year. It'll be too hot, too loud and too uncomfortable for him to lay 
>> on bleachers for hours and hours.  I'm not exactly sure how I'm going 
>> to remain semi comfortable on those bleachers all afternoon and 
>> evening.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I do not take my guides to funerals.  This has nothing to do with 
>>>>>> the
>> place of the event, the other people or the dog.  It is because I 
>> only attend funerals of people who I was very close to and I'm in no 
>> frame of mind to be working a guide dog.  I typically go sighted 
>> guide with a cane just in case.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I have not taken any of my guides on a vacation.  I consider this 
>>>>>> on a
>> case by case basis.  I recently traveled to Alaska.  Monty stayed 
>> home because we scheduled a lot of day trips that would have not been 
>> appropriate for him and I couldn't figure out what I'd do with him.
>> We went clam digging which is extremely and I mean extremely wet, 
>> cold and dirty work.
>> We went kayaking.  there was no place in the boat for him. We also 
>> went fishing on a small boat.  It ended up that he could have 
>> probably fit and been comfortable on that boat, but I didn't know 
>> that before I
> arrived.
>> Ditto with the bed and breakfast, it turned out that the owner would 
>> have been fine with Monty there, but she was not required to accept 
>> service dogs because she lives on the premises and only rents a very 
>> small number of rooms.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I rarely take my guide into friends homes or cars.  The exception 
>>>>>> is if
>> he is specifically invited or if I am attending some work related 
>> function with a coworker.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Other places I don't take Monty: car races, fireworks displays 
>>>>>> and
>> llama farms.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I generally run through the following before taking Monty:
>>>>>> 1. Is he legally allowed in this place?  If no is he invited or 
>>>>>> will he
>> be accepted without impoliteness?
>>>>>> 2.  Will his coming along make my life easier, more convenient or
>> improve my options?
>>>>>> 3.  Will he be comfortable in this place?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Of course I don't actually go through those questions verbatim 
>>>>>> each
>> time, but a lot more so in the beginning when I was still getting the 
>> hang of things.  And sometimes my choice to take him isn't based on 
>> the place at all.  I just left him home yesterday when my husband and 
>> I
> ran to the bank.
>> Monty had already been on a long walk in the morning and then a 
>> regular day at my office.  It was very hot and he was tired.  I felt 
>> like he needed a break.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I've noticed that my list of places and circumstances has changed 
>>>>>> over
>> the years and with the different personalities of my dogs.  What 
>> works for Monty may be entirely different from my next dog or if 
>> Monty was someone else guide what works for that team combination 
>> would likely also be different.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> JMHO
>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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> 
> 
> --
> warmly,
> 
> Debbie Cole
> 
> debbieanne1124 at gmail.com
> 
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