[nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions

Mon Sep 3 18:14:24 UTC 2012

also, many practicers of Islam are naturally afraid of dogs or percieve that 
dogs carry germs.  I asked somewone about taking guide dogs to masque and 
they tell me folks might be very uncomfortible but she thinks it can be 
done.  She is still checking.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions


> Cindy,
>
> Even within the Muslim religion there is debate about guide dogs since 
> such
> animals are considered to be helping "the sick".  In that case it is not
> necessarily the dog, but again the perception of blindness.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Cindy Ray
> Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 05:26 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions
>
> Michael, I feel more strongly that what you are saying is true if an
> individual church takes that approach. If I am going to attend, say, a 
> Roman
> Catholic or a Baptist Church, and they tell me I cannot bring my dog 
> there,
> then I have a serious issue with whether I am welcome there. If the entire
> religion does not allow it and has specific dogma that says this, then
> though I might not like it, tolerance of that religion requires me to 
> accept
> it. In that case, though I don't like it, I can't say I feel less welcome
> because the dog is not invited. I do struggle with those who want to make
> the changes necessary in their dogma that they might bring their dogs. I
> once joined the Muslim dog users' list in order to learn more about this
> effort, but I was asked to depart from it because I wasn't supposed to 
> have
> been accepted there. I would have loved to stay and hear the conversation.
>
> Cindy Lou
>
> On Sep 2, 2012, at 10:51 PM, Michael Hingson wrote:
>
>> Thanks Debbie.  I should explain that since there is no legal
>> framework on which to fight a church's decision each individual must
>> decide whether or not to fight a battle with the church.  For my part,
>> whether or not I decide to attend church where a guide dog is not
>> welcome I will always remember the decision of the church and wonder if
> today is the day to stand firm.
>>
>> If my wife really wanted to attend a particular church and if that
>> organization did not permit my guide dog to come with me I might still
>> go to be with my wife and worship God.  I have not been confronted
>> with this dilemma, but I know others have.  Even if I decided to
>> attend I would make sure the public knew of the decision of the church.
>>
>> Remember, any organization or block of people who does not find a
>> guide dog welcome is really saying that its blind handler is not
>> welcome.  He or she who denies my guide dog denies me.  Or, God does
>> not discriminate against guide dogs people do.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>>
>> Michael Hingson
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Debbie Cole
>> Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 08:27 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions
>>
>> *High 5's Michael
>>
>> On 9/2/12, Michael Hingson <info at michaelhingson.com> wrote:
>>> On the other hand, I believe a church which does not welcome a blind
>>> person with a guide dog is not being welcoming and is discriminating.
>>> Martin Luther King JR. once said something like the most prejudicial
>>> hour of the week is Sunday at 11AM.  Legal or not a church should
>>> above all entities should welcome all including blind persons with
>>> guide
>> dogs.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael Hingson
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 07:53 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of Questions
>>>
>>> Actually, the church is not required to allow you to bring your dog
>>> into their temple, so you may well be doing a good thing not to fight 
>>> it.
>>>
>>> Cindy Lou
>>>
>>> On Sep 2, 2012, at 9:49 PM, Jenny Keller wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> Again, sorry to get to this thread so late.  but I wanted to say
>>>> that as a
>>> member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which has
>>> been in the news a lot for our temples and such.  I am not allowed to
>>> bring him inside the temple.
>>>>
>>>> I know, I could probably fight it.  but there are a lot of Mormons
>>>> who are
>>> blind and have had, or do have guides, and we all, or most of us,
>>> have decided that the Holiness of the temple trumps our legal right
>>> to bring our dogs inside it.
>>>> anyway, Have a great week, and my prayers and thoughts go out to
>>>> anyone on
>>> this list directly, or having family affected, by Hurricane Isac.
>>>>
>>>> Remember, there could've been guides and their handlers involved,
>>>> and they
>>> need our thoughts and prayers.  Not only everyone else too.
>>>>
>>>> Jenny
>>>> On Aug 31, 2012, at 4:05 PM, Lyn Gwizdak wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Julie and Cindy,
>>>>> These things show exactly why the schools tell us not to throw away
>>>>> our
>>> canes or us to never use a cane again.  We have two mobility aids and
>>> we have the capability to use each one as needed and it's all good!
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't take Landon if it is way too hot for him and I've left him
>>>>> for
>>> some other things as well.  Recently, I left him home when I went to
>>> somebody's tiny bungalow home to make buttons and signs for Pride.
>>> There were two small dogs and a TON of people crammed into that house
>>> and tiny patio out back.  I was glad not to have had Landon with me.
>>> He literally would have had NO place to lie down where he wouldn't
>>> get
>> stepped on!
>>> Literally! LOL! I was glad to be able to work on our projects without
>>> worrying about him getting stepped on or fed junk by people who
>>> didn't know the rules.  Landon stayed home and snoozed and kept my
>>> sister company.  I didn't bring him to our CityFest event where I
>>> staffed my Democratic club's table.  It was SOOOOOO hot that day!  I
>>> did see some dogs there but not as many as usual for that event - and
>>> even some of
>> those dogs wore booties!
>>> Landon's comfort was much more important than his entertaining folks
>>> who came to our booth. He does this out of harness.  He deals well
>>> with visiting and then working because he is a certified therapy dog
>>> as well so he enjoys this alot.  I also leave him home alot when I
>>> grocery shop and need to take a cart on the bus.  Much easier with a
>>> cane.
>>>>>
>>>>> Each person and dog need to do as they deem the right thing to do
>>>>> in any
>>> circumstance and people shouldn't criticise each other for our choices.
>>>>>
>>>>> Landon goes to funerals and he comforts people there - family
>>>>> members or
>>> my friends - at the appropriate time.  I had him at my Dad's funeral
>>> last week at their church and later at my parents' house where we
>>> gathered afterwards. We will have another memorial in late October
>>> when the rest of our huge family can get there.  Landon will be there
>>> as
>> well.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I ride in private cars or visit private homes where I don't
>>>>> really
>>> know the people, I will ask first before bringing Landon - just 
>>> courtesy.
>>> And most of the time, they say a resounding YES because most of the
>>> people I know love dogs and animals.
>>>>>
>>>>> Everyone have a nice Labor Day.  Hope those of you in the path of
>>>>> TS
>>> Isaac are safe and OK.  these storms can be so devastating!
>>>>>
>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 1:07 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] where I don't take the dog was Lots of
>>>>> Questions
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> There are few places I don't take the dog. Sometimes when with my
>>> daughter, I don't take him for a ride with us if we go for a drive. I
>>> will not take him to fireworks displays, and I stopped taking him
>>> when I went to the gym. However, before I ever got a dog, my husband
>>> at the time, Chuck Hallenbeck, said to me, "Think of all the places
>>> you wouldn't think you would use the dog and then use it anyway", or
>>> words to that effect. And that is what I've always done. It is
>>> interesting the differences in people's philosophy of where to use/take
> the dog.
>>> When I went to the Benedictine Retreat Center I went to in spring, if
>>> they had said I couldn't bring him, I would have been more amenable
>>> to that since I now understand that this is within their right.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CL
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Aug 31, 2012, at 1:04 PM, Julie J. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am going to the state fair this weekend.  the temps are
>>>>>>> supposed to
>>> be in the 90's.  We are going to a tractor pull and then a concert.
>>> Monty has been to the state fair before, but he's staying home this
>>> year. It'll be too hot, too loud and too uncomfortable for him to lay
>>> on bleachers for hours and hours.  I'm not exactly sure how I'm going
>>> to remain semi comfortable on those bleachers all afternoon and
>>> evening.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I do not take my guides to funerals.  This has nothing to do with
>>>>>>> the
>>> place of the event, the other people or the dog.  It is because I
>>> only attend funerals of people who I was very close to and I'm in no
>>> frame of mind to be working a guide dog.  I typically go sighted
>>> guide with a cane just in case.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have not taken any of my guides on a vacation.  I consider this
>>>>>>> on a
>>> case by case basis.  I recently traveled to Alaska.  Monty stayed
>>> home because we scheduled a lot of day trips that would have not been
>>> appropriate for him and I couldn't figure out what I'd do with him.
>>> We went clam digging which is extremely and I mean extremely wet,
>>> cold and dirty work.
>>> We went kayaking.  there was no place in the boat for him. We also
>>> went fishing on a small boat.  It ended up that he could have
>>> probably fit and been comfortable on that boat, but I didn't know
>>> that before I
>> arrived.
>>> Ditto with the bed and breakfast, it turned out that the owner would
>>> have been fine with Monty there, but she was not required to accept
>>> service dogs because she lives on the premises and only rents a very
>>> small number of rooms.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I rarely take my guide into friends homes or cars.  The exception
>>>>>>> is if
>>> he is specifically invited or if I am attending some work related
>>> function with a coworker.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Other places I don't take Monty: car races, fireworks displays
>>>>>>> and
>>> llama farms.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I generally run through the following before taking Monty:
>>>>>>> 1. Is he legally allowed in this place?  If no is he invited or
>>>>>>> will he
>>> be accepted without impoliteness?
>>>>>>> 2.  Will his coming along make my life easier, more convenient or
>>> improve my options?
>>>>>>> 3.  Will he be comfortable in this place?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course I don't actually go through those questions verbatim
>>>>>>> each
>>> time, but a lot more so in the beginning when I was still getting the
>>> hang of things.  And sometimes my choice to take him isn't based on
>>> the place at all.  I just left him home yesterday when my husband and
>>> I
>> ran to the bank.
>>> Monty had already been on a long walk in the morning and then a
>>> regular day at my office.  It was very hot and he was tired.  I felt
>>> like he needed a break.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've noticed that my list of places and circumstances has changed
>>>>>>> over
>>> the years and with the different personalities of my dogs.  What
>>> works for Monty may be entirely different from my next dog or if
>>> Monty was someone else guide what works for that team combination
>>> would likely also be different.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> JMHO
>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> warmly,
>>
>> Debbie Cole
>>
>> debbieanne1124 at gmail.com
>>
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