[nagdu] To the Owner Trainers On List

[Julie J.]

Robert,

You ask a lot of really good questions.  The very fact that you are 
asking them tells me you are serious about this and fully understand the 
commitment necessary.  Well at least as much as you can before your hip 
deep! *smile*  Kinda like parenting in that regard.  You can read all 
the books you want, but until you change that first diaper...well you 
get the idea.

I'll try to answer your questions in an email, but probably talking on 
the phone would be better.  Email me off list and we can work out a 
date/time.

Okay here we go.

I know nothing about King Shepherds.   I didn't know anything about 
Boxers before I got Monty.  He's a Boxer mix.  I haven't started with a 
young puppy though.  My last two dogs have been older puppies, so I 
concentrated a lot more on their individual personality than I did 
breed.  I used the breed to generally narrow down the possibilities or 
give me a general idea of what to look out for.  Herding breeds have 
different tendencies than do the sporting breeds and that sort of thing.

My first guide was an experiment.  I had an older dog that I trained to 
do guide things because she was there and I could.  I needed to figure 
out for myself if this grand scheme was actually a possibility or if I 
had just been out in the sun too long. *smile*  It went well so I kept 
on going.

All your ideas on how to learn are good, but in the end you really do 
have to just do it.  All that reading, talking to trainers, asking other 
owner trainers, working your own dog and joining email discussion groups 
will lay a good foundation.

As for good book recommendations...that's tough.  I'd suggest the 
Teamwork 1 and 2 books.  They are on training other types of service dog 
tasks, but some of the stuff in there is useful for guides.  they also 
helped me to start thinking out of the box so to speak.  I read books on 
bridge and Target, loads on clicker, the Monks of New Skeet, crap from 
that Caesar guy, anything the talking book library had no matter how 
dumb it looked and everything the various guide dog schools had on their 
web sites.  I watched a lot of dog TV too.  I like Victoria Still well 
and cannot stand Cesar Melond or whatever his name is.  Again not about 
guide dogs, but the bigger variety of ways to approach the same sorts of 
problems the more you will understand dog behavior and be apply that 
knowledge to your particular dog in a particular situation.  Audible has 
some really good books on dogs, not specifically about training, but 
more about understanding behavior.  I'll have to look up titles for you.

I'd say that a good foundation in either how guides work or dog training 
will serve you well.  I also think you need a strong foundation in O&M 
by cane or echolocation or energy field manipulation.  *smile*

Yes, I had dogs before Belle.  Tia was my first guide, the experiment 
one.  Then there was Belle and now Monty.  Before that I had many other 
dogs, usually more than one at a time.  I've been training dogs since 
high school.  I've competed in obedience, flyball and agility.  I've 
helped to train a couple of hunting dogs, loads of pet dogs and once 
tried confirmation showing, but flopped miserably.   I'm three for three 
on the guide dog front, although I suppose it depends on how you measure 
success.  I didn't start training Tia until she was older so she wasn't 
physically up for the kind of work I need on a daily basis.  She only 
ever worked part time on shorter routs without stairs.  Belle was a 
guide for only a couple of years.  she was accosted by a lot of dogs and 
developed anxiety issues.  Looking back I wonder if those issues were 
always there and the dog attacks brought them to the surface?  Maybe she 
didn't have quite the confidence needed to be a guide...I don't know.  
Monty has been working as my full time guide for 3 years now and shows 
no signs of quitting anytime soon.  I looked at a lot of puppies before 
picking Belle or Monty, but once I commit to a dog I've seen it through.

training methods...ahhh you're cracking open a large can of worms!  So 
grab a fork and let's dig in!  It depends on who you ask, what day of 
the week it is and whether Jupiter is aligned with Mars.  I've never 
heard of two trainers agreeing 100% on training methods.  Ask 100 
trainers for their opinions and you'll get 110 opinions.  Mostly I'd 
suggest you read a bunch, experiment for yourself and use the method 
that feels right to you.  I was originally taught what I affectionately 
call yank and crank.  You basically give a leash correction every time 
the dog does something you don't want and then tell them good dog when 
they submit to your will.  The day the obedience instructor hung my dog 
was the day I started questioning this method.  It was years before I 
gave it up, remember I was only in high school.  I lean heavily toward 
positive methods these days, namely clicker training.  I think the same 
methods are used for both puppies and adults.

Okay what to teach first.  I've talked to guide dog school trainers, but 
very, very very, few will tell you anything about how to train guide dog 
skills.  Those are secrets guarded more closely than the Colonel's 
secret recipe.  Most of them will at least be polite, but a few were 
what I'd refer to as rude.  Of course your mileage may vary.

I start teaching guide skills before I ever introduce the harness.  I 
pair the words with what I'm doing when I have the dog at heel.  So when 
I turn left I say left.  When I open the door to go outside I say 
outside.  It's classic conditioning.  It's time intensive and I wouldn't 
use it as a primary training method, but it's no extra energy to say 
left or outside or whatever.  My dogs do start to make those 
associations long before they'll be making those movements in harness.

Okay on to the first day of dog in harness...yes, the first thing I 
teach is to walk in a straight line, preferably in a forward direction 
while pulling into the harness, oh and going at a reasonable pace.  
that's a lot to lump together, but I'm not good at separating things 
into their smallest bits.  So I lump it all together and teach it in one 
go.  I start on the sidewalk right in front of my house.  I'm thinking I 
then teach to stop at curbs.  You can always drop the harness handle 
turn your body, get the dog in the heel position and resume harness 
training.  that's why I teach stopping at curbs first then turns later.  
Stationary turns are easier than moving ones.  right turns are also 
easier than left ones assuming that your dog works on the left.   I 
picked the next thing on my training list that looked like it was the 
next logical choice and started introducing that.  If it went well I 
kept it up.  If it went badly I'd wait a few days, reevaluate my 
approach or perhaps postpone it for a longer amount of time.  Sometimes 
the dog just isn't ready even if you are doing everything right.

Your approach to obstacles is pretty close to mine.  Left side clearance 
is easier.  Stationary obstacles are easier than moving ones.  Larger, 
ground level obstacles are the easiest.  Overhead are probably the most 
difficult.  Pot holes and mid level barriers are in between.  I wait 
until near the end to do moving obstacles and traffic last.

The main thing with guide work is to teach the dog that your space is an 
extension of the dog's space.  A dog of at least normal intelligence 
doesn't want to become road pizza, smash head on into a brick wall or 
fall in a hole.  all you are really teaching the dog is that you and he 
are one unit.  Your space is his space.  Once he starts thinking in this 
way training will be nearly effortless.

Meghan and Roxie on this list have a much more methodical approach to 
traffic.  I'm hoping they will have time to share how they do it.  I 
start by enlisting the help of volunteers.  There is no way of teaching 
moving obstacles, including traffic without somebody to move the 
obstacles.  I plan out ahead of time where the person is going to be and 
what I want the dog to learn and what not.  That way I know where the 
car/bike/shopping cart will be coming from and will be able to encourage 
the dog to make the appropriate decisions.  I wouldn't suggest trying 
moving obstacle avoidance with a dog younger than 15 to 18 months.  I do 
not believe they have the brain development to support the thought 
processes necessary.

I teach leave it through dogie Zen.  You get what you want by ignoring 
what you want.  I'm thinking a Google search will score you directions 
on how to do this in detail.  Monty is awesome at it!  It's one of his 
strong areas.The very, very short version is that the dog gets a treat 
from you by ignoring the other food on the floor. If he goes for the 
other food it suddenly disappears.  You'll need to be able to step on it 
or quickly close a lid or something to keep the dog from getting the 
distraction food.  Soon when the dog sees food left out he'll look to 
you.  At this point you can randomly reinforce the behavior with his treat.


Find is an easy one to teach.  Lots of people add that skill to their 
program dogs once they get home.  Monty can find a few things by name, 
but mostly I think he is using environmental hints.  He is okay with 
elevator buttons, stairs, and counters.  He's really good at inside and 
outside.  He's funny about finding our pick up in a parking lot, 
sometimes he'll make a beeline for it and other times he'll stop at some 
random tiny red economy car or some such thing first. He's getting 
better at finding empty chairs.  I still want to teach trash cans.

Anyway there's a bit to get you started.  I'm in the editing phase of my 
book project.  I'm very hopeful that it will be available in time for 
Christmas shopping.  It's the very in depth account of training Monty 
including the good the bad and the ugly. *smile*

Julie