[nagdu] Naming names

Fri Apr 19 20:03:29 UTC 2013

Ann,
Thank you for sharing. Apparently I was and am very lucky as I did little
research and was just happy that there was a school in my area. SEGDI is
only about 30 miles from home and I was on the list for about a year. Ace
has only barked three times in almost two years and two dogs bilged out of
the program two weeks in for barking during dinner. I was walking between
buildings at the VA Hospital just the other day and there were two squirrels
just about three feet from the sidewalk. Ace looked over and gave one little
whine but never tugged on the lead or broke his stride. So I could be
spoiled but the school I attended was very strict about those things.
Ken & Ace

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ann Edie
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 3:26 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names

Hi, All,

I agree completely with what Julie has said.  Furthermore, I can't imagine a
list associated with the NFB not permitting its members to speak their
honest opinions clearly and respectfully to other consumers who have the
right to the most accurate and complete information possible to help them
make informed decisions about how they meet the challenges of living as
blind people.  If we cannot learn the truth from each other, from whom will
we learn it?  If we are afraid to speak the name of a guide dog school in
connection to anything less than abject praise, then how can we stand tall
as self-respecting blind consumers and first-class citizens?  Are we so
afraid of the schools that we cannot even honestly answer questions from our
fellow blind persons about our own firsthand experiences with a service
which, after all, is designed specifically for us as blind people?  From
whom, then, are prospective guide dog users supposed to learn about the
differences, strengths, and weaknesses of the various guide dog programs?
If there really would be retaliation of some kind against guide dog handlers
who spoke honestly about their experiences, then NAGDU really does have an
advocacy cause to address here.

And NO, I am not saying that school bashing, or anyone else-bashing, is
okay.  I'm just saying that stating one's experience with a school or a
trainer or a dog from a particular school seems to me not only to be
completely appropriate for this list, but indeed very much part of the core
mission of this list.

So, I will state that I received one very good working chocolate Labrador
retriever guide dog from The Seeing Eye in 1991, and he worked until he was
almost 11 years old.  This doesn't mean that I had a 100% positive
experience with the Seeing Eye; I did disagree with a couple of their
policies and procedures.  But they provided me with a fine product at that
time.  And if asked by a prospective guide dog user, I would give TSE a
positive recommendation with a couple of caviots.  I subsequently (in 2001),
received 2 German shepherd dogs from Fidelco, one female and one male.  Both
of these dogs worked for only a short time, the first for only 3 months, the
second for almost a year.  The first had a compulsive need to chase anything
that moved or appeared to move, animals, light beams or sparkles, and small
children, not just distraction or losing focus on her work, but full-out
barking, lunging, flipping out losing it.  The second dog repeatedly bolted
off after cats and other dogs, including after dogs in passing cars, pulling
me into traffic, or pulling chairs in which I was sitting over backwards, or
pulling the harness and leash out of my hands and bolting off after whatever
it was that he saw.  Needless to say, I worked earnestly with the trainers
and instructors from the school to try to resolve these issues, but to no
avail.  I sent both dogs back to the school for reevaluation, in case they
could be considered "bad matches" and could be retrained to work as guides
for someone else.  Neither dog was judged to be suitable for a second
placement.  Both dogs were released from the guide program, one went to a
pet home, the other went to the State Police (I don't know if he made it as
a police dog.)  I did not feel that I got the best of support from the
program during the year-and-a-half that I was struggling with these two
dogs.  Based on this experience, I would not return to this program for
another guide dog, and I would not recommend this program to others.  That
is my experience, and whether anyone chooses to consider it as one datapoint
among the many they might want to consider in their process of deciding how
to spend their energy and time as a consumer of guide dog training services
is their own decision.  But I certainly don't think that anything I have
said could be considered flaming or spreading rumors or untruths.  I think
people must try to get to know the other individuals on a list like this and
that will help them decide which individuals generally have the same values
as their own and therefore whose opinions might prove the most useful to
them as guidelines.

Anyway, I do hope that NAGDU and its list can continue to be a place where
thought and open discussion is encouraged for the benefit of all of us.

Best,
Ann

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 9:34 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names

Eve,

I don't agree with your assertion that people should not be using this list
to find out about the various guide dog programs.  You suggest that people
should go directly to the source, the guide dog program.

I view getting a guide dog like any other consumer acquisition.  Let's say
I'm in the market for a car.  I'm thinking about a Fordor a Toyota.  I go to
the Ford dealership and ask about their cars.  They are going to tell me all
the wonderful things about their cars and how they are better than the rest.

Then I go to the Toyota dealer and guess what? they tell me all the same
things except of course their cars are the best, even better than Ford.  So
how do I figure out what is what and who to believe?  I go to the users.

I start asking my friends who use the products I'm interested in about their
experiences and satisfaction.  When I'm out and about I notice the products
I'm interested in in use.  I make a note of whether or not I like what I'm 
hearing and observing.   I make my decision based on all the information I 
have gathered.

I think this list and others like it, are the exact right place to get
information about guide dogs from actual users.

Over the years I've had a lot of conversations with a lot of guide dog users
and program staff.  I've been around a lot of guide dog teams and have seen
first hand how they work in a real life situation.  If I had called the
schools or read the info on their web sites I would in no way have the same
understanding of what they are offering.

All that said I think there absolutely needs to be respectful discussion. 
Perhaps I have a much higher tolerance for negativity than others, but I
rarely see bashing or flaming on this list.  I'm totally okay with people
respectfully disagreeing with an idea.  I also think it's very important for
people to limit their sharing with firsthand accounts.  The stuff that
begins with my next door neighbor's, hairdressers brother had a guide dog
from XYZ and I heard it was horrid are truly inappropriate.  I honestly see
no problem with a statement like, "I had a guide dog from XYZ and it was
horrid."  That's not hearsay or gossip.  That's a honest firsthand account.

Anyway that's my .02 for what it's worth.
Julie

-----Original Message-----
From: Eve Sanchez
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 10:50 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names

Yes, the issue here (that I think Marsha is trying to get across) is that
people are using names without knowing facts. They think they know, but
rumors spread and falsehoods abound and soon what is being said (though well
meaning) is a bunch of lies that could be considered bashing. People should
not be learning from people on this list which schools are great and which
are not, because it is opinions and hear say. People should be able to learn
from the source they wish to investigate. What we should be learning here is
our own experiences of occurances, how-to's, and what works for us. We can
only honestly report about ourselves. I am not saying anyone here would
intentionally lie, but people make mistakes or are just plain wrong.
When the names are thrown out with false formation or the bashing comments,
it does cause blood pressures to rise. As for me, I am getting sick of this
entire thread. The rules are laid out. Accept them. If people want to quit
the list because they cannot handle the rules then good riddance. Can we get
back to talking about our dogs now? Eve

On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 7:28 PM, Sheila Leigland <sleigland at bresnan.net>
wrote:
> Well said, there is a big difference between honest discussion between 
> handlers and putting others down for the choices that they need to make.
>
> Sheila Leigland
>
> _______________________________________________
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