[nagdu] Naming names

Sat Apr 20 03:06:40 UTC 2013

You sure he was a dog!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ann Edie" <annedie at nycap.rr.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 7:46 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names


> Hi, Ken,
>
> One of the marvelous characteristics of my first dog was that other 
> animals
> seemed to be completely invisible to him.  We could walk within inches of 
> a
> cat and Bailey wouldn't even flinch.  I lived out in the country, so I
> specifically asked for a dog which would ignore both live wild animals and
> roadkill.  Bailey fulfilled this need perfectly.  He would not even break
> his stride when a band of deer would bound across the road mere feet in
> front of us.  He would walk neatly around the dead possums or whatever was
> in our path instead of stopping to sniff, or worse.  When I lived in a 
> house
> in Newton while attending grad school, the upstairs cat would come down to
> my apartment and rub herself under Bailey's belly, and all he would do was
> to come sit on my feet or go behind the breakfast bar to avoid having to
> deal with the cat, and that was when he was out of harness and free to 
> just
> be a dog!  He would also ignore my kids' toys and my pet dog's food (as 
> long
> as it was in the bowl--if pieces of kibble were left about on the floor,
> then Bailey considered it his duty to clean them up.)  So I guess I was
> really spoiled by this, my first guide dog, although my pet dogs had 
> always
> been very well behaved also.  I was definitely not prepared for the nutty
> behavior I saw in my 2nd and third guide dogs.  I was willing to do 
> whatever
> the trainers suggested to try to solve the problems, but things just 
> seemed
> to go from bad to worse.
>
> I wish you continued good luck and success with all your present and 
> future
> guides.  Having confidence in your program of choice is the most important
> element, I think.  If you can be open with them when you do have 
> questions,
> and if they are open with you about the characteristics and quirks of each
> dog they match you with, then I think you can enjoy a long and happy
> relationship with the training program.
>
> Best,
> Ann
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Ace
> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 1:03 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>
> Ann,
> Thank you for sharing. Apparently I was and am very lucky as I did little
> research and was just happy that there was a school in my area. SEGDI is
> only about 30 miles from home and I was on the list for about a year. Ace
> has only barked three times in almost two years and two dogs bilged out of
> the program two weeks in for barking during dinner. I was walking between
> buildings at the VA Hospital just the other day and there were two 
> squirrels
> just about three feet from the sidewalk. Ace looked over and gave one 
> little
> whine but never tugged on the lead or broke his stride. So I could be
> spoiled but the school I attended was very strict about those things.
> Ken & Ace
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ann Edie
> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 3:26 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>
> Hi, All,
>
> I agree completely with what Julie has said.  Furthermore, I can't imagine 
> a
> list associated with the NFB not permitting its members to speak their
> honest opinions clearly and respectfully to other consumers who have the
> right to the most accurate and complete information possible to help them
> make informed decisions about how they meet the challenges of living as
> blind people.  If we cannot learn the truth from each other, from whom 
> will
> we learn it?  If we are afraid to speak the name of a guide dog school in
> connection to anything less than abject praise, then how can we stand tall
> as self-respecting blind consumers and first-class citizens?  Are we so
> afraid of the schools that we cannot even honestly answer questions from 
> our
> fellow blind persons about our own firsthand experiences with a service
> which, after all, is designed specifically for us as blind people?  From
> whom, then, are prospective guide dog users supposed to learn about the
> differences, strengths, and weaknesses of the various guide dog programs?
> If there really would be retaliation of some kind against guide dog 
> handlers
> who spoke honestly about their experiences, then NAGDU really does have an
> advocacy cause to address here.
>
> And NO, I am not saying that school bashing, or anyone else-bashing, is
> okay.  I'm just saying that stating one's experience with a school or a
> trainer or a dog from a particular school seems to me not only to be
> completely appropriate for this list, but indeed very much part of the 
> core
> mission of this list.
>
> So, I will state that I received one very good working chocolate Labrador
> retriever guide dog from The Seeing Eye in 1991, and he worked until he 
> was
> almost 11 years old.  This doesn't mean that I had a 100% positive
> experience with the Seeing Eye; I did disagree with a couple of their
> policies and procedures.  But they provided me with a fine product at that
> time.  And if asked by a prospective guide dog user, I would give TSE a
> positive recommendation with a couple of caviots.  I subsequently (in 
> 2001),
> received 2 German shepherd dogs from Fidelco, one female and one male. 
> Both
> of these dogs worked for only a short time, the first for only 3 months, 
> the
> second for almost a year.  The first had a compulsive need to chase 
> anything
> that moved or appeared to move, animals, light beams or sparkles, and 
> small
> children, not just distraction or losing focus on her work, but full-out
> barking, lunging, flipping out losing it.  The second dog repeatedly 
> bolted
> off after cats and other dogs, including after dogs in passing cars, 
> pulling
> me into traffic, or pulling chairs in which I was sitting over backwards, 
> or
> pulling the harness and leash out of my hands and bolting off after 
> whatever
> it was that he saw.  Needless to say, I worked earnestly with the trainers
> and instructors from the school to try to resolve these issues, but to no
> avail.  I sent both dogs back to the school for reevaluation, in case they
> could be considered "bad matches" and could be retrained to work as guides
> for someone else.  Neither dog was judged to be suitable for a second
> placement.  Both dogs were released from the guide program, one went to a
> pet home, the other went to the State Police (I don't know if he made it 
> as
> a police dog.)  I did not feel that I got the best of support from the
> program during the year-and-a-half that I was struggling with these two
> dogs.  Based on this experience, I would not return to this program for
> another guide dog, and I would not recommend this program to others.  That
> is my experience, and whether anyone chooses to consider it as one 
> datapoint
> among the many they might want to consider in their process of deciding 
> how
> to spend their energy and time as a consumer of guide dog training 
> services
> is their own decision.  But I certainly don't think that anything I have
> said could be considered flaming or spreading rumors or untruths.  I think
> people must try to get to know the other individuals on a list like this 
> and
> that will help them decide which individuals generally have the same 
> values
> as their own and therefore whose opinions might prove the most useful to
> them as guidelines.
>
> Anyway, I do hope that NAGDU and its list can continue to be a place where
> thought and open discussion is encouraged for the benefit of all of us.
>
> Best,
> Ann
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 9:34 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>
> Eve,
>
> I don't agree with your assertion that people should not be using this 
> list
> to find out about the various guide dog programs.  You suggest that people
> should go directly to the source, the guide dog program.
>
> I view getting a guide dog like any other consumer acquisition.  Let's say
> I'm in the market for a car.  I'm thinking about a Fordor a Toyota.  I go 
> to
> the Ford dealership and ask about their cars.  They are going to tell me 
> all
> the wonderful things about their cars and how they are better than the 
> rest.
>
> Then I go to the Toyota dealer and guess what? they tell me all the same
> things except of course their cars are the best, even better than Ford. 
> So
> how do I figure out what is what and who to believe?  I go to the users.
>
> I start asking my friends who use the products I'm interested in about 
> their
> experiences and satisfaction.  When I'm out and about I notice the 
> products
> I'm interested in in use.  I make a note of whether or not I like what I'm
> hearing and observing.   I make my decision based on all the information I
> have gathered.
>
> I think this list and others like it, are the exact right place to get
> information about guide dogs from actual users.
>
> Over the years I've had a lot of conversations with a lot of guide dog 
> users
> and program staff.  I've been around a lot of guide dog teams and have 
> seen
> first hand how they work in a real life situation.  If I had called the
> schools or read the info on their web sites I would in no way have the 
> same
> understanding of what they are offering.
>
> All that said I think there absolutely needs to be respectful discussion.
> Perhaps I have a much higher tolerance for negativity than others, but I
> rarely see bashing or flaming on this list.  I'm totally okay with people
> respectfully disagreeing with an idea.  I also think it's very important 
> for
> people to limit their sharing with firsthand accounts.  The stuff that
> begins with my next door neighbor's, hairdressers brother had a guide dog
> from XYZ and I heard it was horrid are truly inappropriate.  I honestly 
> see
> no problem with a statement like, "I had a guide dog from XYZ and it was
> horrid."  That's not hearsay or gossip.  That's a honest firsthand 
> account.
>
> Anyway that's my .02 for what it's worth.
> Julie
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eve Sanchez
> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 10:50 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>
> Yes, the issue here (that I think Marsha is trying to get across) is that
> people are using names without knowing facts. They think they know, but
> rumors spread and falsehoods abound and soon what is being said (though 
> well
> meaning) is a bunch of lies that could be considered bashing. People 
> should
> not be learning from people on this list which schools are great and which
> are not, because it is opinions and hear say. People should be able to 
> learn
> from the source they wish to investigate. What we should be learning here 
> is
> our own experiences of occurances, how-to's, and what works for us. We can
> only honestly report about ourselves. I am not saying anyone here would
> intentionally lie, but people make mistakes or are just plain wrong.
> When the names are thrown out with false formation or the bashing 
> comments,
> it does cause blood pressures to rise. As for me, I am getting sick of 
> this
> entire thread. The rules are laid out. Accept them. If people want to quit
> the list because they cannot handle the rules then good riddance. Can we 
> get
> back to talking about our dogs now? Eve
>
> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 7:28 PM, Sheila Leigland <sleigland at bresnan.net>
> wrote:
>> Well said, there is a big difference between honest discussion between
>> handlers and putting others down for the choices that they need to make.
>>
>> Sheila Leigland
>>
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