[nagdu] Guide Longevity; was: Naming names

Larry D. Keeler lkeeler at comcast.net
Thu Apr 25 18:13:23 UTC 2013


Well, come out and play once in awhile!  We do learn from everyone!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ken Ace" <ken at acenovels.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Longevity; was: Naming names


> Fading into the woodwork!
> Thank you all for your input, I am just going to sit this chat room out.
> I'll just be in the bleachers and watch the game.
> Thank you all,
> Ken & Ace
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D. Keeler
> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 12:45 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Longevity; was: Naming names
>
> I sure want dogs and intend to spend my life going through all of there 
> life
> cycles. If you want a long lived guide, use a horse or person.  I expect 
> to
> get 10 years or so out of Holly. And another few years with her after she
> retires.  Then, of to the next one.  I'm sure they will all have something
> new to teach!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Star Gazer" <pickrellrebecca at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 10:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Longevity; was: Naming names
>
>
>> Yes, Ann, this is very well put.
>> I paused for  a bit when I read Ken's post about wanting his dog to be
>> his last. That didn't seem right or healthy to me.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ann Edie
>> Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 4:45 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Longevity; was: Naming names
>>
>> Hi, Ken,
>>
>> Don't sell yourself short.  The sad fact is that the average guide dog
>> works only about 5-6 years (from surveys of guide dog handlers, not
>> the "info"
>> that the guide dog programs put out.)  And the life span of today's
>> human-bred dogs is pitifully short, in any case.  So I hope that no
>> matter how wonderful Ace is as a guide, that you do get the chance to
>> experience one or more successor dogs.  Myself, I found it very
>> wrenching to go through the loss of a succession of such close
>> partners and the emotional Russian roulette of wondering whether the
>> next one I fell in love with would work out as a mobility partner or
>> would do his darndest to shorten my stay on Earth.  So, for the past
>> 10 years I have been partnered with the most engaging and completely
>> competent miniature horse guide, Panda.  She is now
>> 12 years old, and I have the prospect of another decade or more of
>> exemplary guide service from her and more years than that of
>> companionship and shared adventures.  And even though I just turned
>> 65, I'm not ruling out the possibility of successor guides or perhaps
>> even concurrent ones.  My parents are both still going pretty strong
>> as they approach 90, and I had a great grandmother who lived to be
>> 103, so I'm planning for the long term.  I hope the same longevity for
>> you and the same (in doggy terms) for Ace.
>>
>> Best,
>> Ann
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Ace
>> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 5:35 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>>
>> Ann;
>> Thank you, I have certainly been blessed with the pairing up of Ace
>> and I and this could be both good and bad. Ace's goal in life is to
>> outlive my sorry ass because I don't think I could adjust to another.
>> The good part of this scenario is that I am already 72 so Ace has a
>> good chance of fulfilling his goal.
>> Ken & Ace
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ann Edie
>> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 7:46 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>>
>> Hi, Ken,
>>
>> One of the marvelous characteristics of my first dog was that other
>> animals seemed to be completely invisible to him.  We could walk
>> within inches of a cat and Bailey wouldn't even flinch.  I lived out
>> in the country, so I specifically asked for a dog which would ignore
>> both live wild animals and roadkill.  Bailey fulfilled this need
>> perfectly.  He would not even break his stride when a band of deer
>> would bound across the road mere feet in front of us.  He would walk
>> neatly around the dead possums or whatever was in our path instead of
>> stopping to sniff, or worse.  When I lived in a house in Newton while
>> attending grad school, the upstairs cat would come down to my
>> apartment and rub herself under Bailey's belly, and all he would do
>> was to come sit on my feet or go behind the breakfast bar to avoid
>> having to deal with the cat, and that was when he was out of harness
>> and free to just be a dog!  He would also ignore my kids' toys and my
>> pet dog's food (as long as it was in the bowl--if pieces of kibble
>> were left about on the floor, then Bailey considered it his duty to
>> clean them up.)  So I guess I was really spoiled by this, my first
>> guide dog, although my pet dogs had always been very well behaved
>> also.  I was definitely not prepared for the nutty behavior I saw in
>> my 2nd and third guide dogs.  I was willing to do whatever the
>> trainers suggested to try to solve the problems, but things just
>> seemed to go from bad to worse.
>>
>> I wish you continued good luck and success with all your present and
>> future guides.  Having confidence in your program of choice is the
>> most important element, I think.  If you can be open with them when
>> you do have questions, and if they are open with you about the
>> characteristics and quirks of each dog they match you with, then I
>> think you can enjoy a long and happy relationship with the training
>> program.
>>
>> Best,
>> Ann
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Ace
>> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 1:03 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>>
>> Ann,
>> Thank you for sharing. Apparently I was and am very lucky as I did
>> little research and was just happy that there was a school in my area.
>> SEGDI is only about 30 miles from home and I was on the list for about
>> a year. Ace has only barked three times in almost two years and two
>> dogs bilged out of the program two weeks in for barking during dinner.
>> I was walking between buildings at the VA Hospital just the other day
>> and there were two squirrels just about three feet from the sidewalk.
>> Ace looked over and gave one little whine but never tugged on the lead
>> or broke his stride. So I could be spoiled but the school I attended
>> was very strict about those things.
>> Ken & Ace
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ann Edie
>> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 3:26 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>>
>> Hi, All,
>>
>> I agree completely with what Julie has said.  Furthermore, I can't
>> imagine a list associated with the NFB not permitting its members to
>> speak their honest opinions clearly and respectfully to other
>> consumers who have the right to the most accurate and complete
>> information possible to help them make informed decisions about how
>> they meet the challenges of living as blind people.  If we cannot
>> learn the truth from each other, from whom will we learn it?  If we
>> are afraid to speak the name of a guide dog school in connection to
>> anything less than abject praise, then how can we stand tall as
>> self-respecting blind consumers and first-class citizens?  Are we so
>> afraid of the schools that we cannot even honestly answer questions
>> from our fellow blind persons about our own firsthand experiences with
>> a service which, after all, is designed specifically for us as blind
>> people?  From whom, then, are prospective guide dog users supposed to
>> learn about the differences, strengths, and weaknesses of the various
>> guide dog programs?
>> If there really would be retaliation of some kind against guide dog
>> handlers who spoke honestly about their experiences, then NAGDU really
>> does have an advocacy cause to address here.
>>
>> And NO, I am not saying that school bashing, or anyone else-bashing,
>> is okay.  I'm just saying that stating one's experience with a school
>> or a trainer or a dog from a particular school seems to me not only to
>> be completely appropriate for this list, but indeed very much part of
>> the core mission of this list.
>>
>> So, I will state that I received one very good working chocolate
>> Labrador retriever guide dog from The Seeing Eye in 1991, and he
>> worked until he was almost 11 years old.  This doesn't mean that I had
>> a 100% positive experience with the Seeing Eye; I did disagree with a
>> couple of their policies and procedures.  But they provided me with a
>> fine product at that time.  And if asked by a prospective guide dog
>> user, I would give TSE a positive recommendation with a couple of
>> caviots.  I subsequently (in 2001), received 2 German shepherd dogs
>> from Fidelco, one female and one male.
>> Both
>> of these dogs worked for only a short time, the first for only 3
>> months, the second for almost a year.  The first had a compulsive need
>> to chase anything that moved or appeared to move, animals, light beams
>> or sparkles, and small children, not just distraction or losing focus
>> on her work, but full-out barking, lunging, flipping out losing it.
>> The second dog repeatedly bolted off after cats and other dogs,
>> including after dogs in passing cars, pulling me into traffic, or
>> pulling chairs in which I was sitting over backwards, or pulling the
>> harness and leash out of my hands and bolting off after whatever it
>> was that he saw.  Needless to say, I worked earnestly with the
>> trainers and instructors from the school to try to resolve these
>> issues, but to no avail.  I sent both dogs back to the school for
>> reevaluation, in case they could be considered "bad matches" and could
>> be retrained to work as guides for someone else.  Neither dog was
>> judged to be suitable for a second placement.  Both dogs were released
>> from the guide program, one went to a pet home, the other went to the
>> State Police (I don't know if he made it as a police dog.)  I did not
>> feel that I got the best of support from the program during the
>> year-and-a-half that I was struggling with these two dogs.  Based on
>> this experience, I would not return to this program for another guide
>> dog, and I would not recommend this program to others.  That is my
>> experience, and whether anyone chooses to consider it as one datapoint
>> among the many they might want to consider in their process of
>> deciding how to spend their energy and time as a consumer of guide dog
>> training services is their own decision.  But I certainly don't think
>> that anything I have said could be considered flaming or spreading
>> rumors or untruths.  I think people must try to get to know the other
>> individuals on a list like this and that will help them decide which
>> individuals generally have the same values as their own and therefore
>> whose opinions might prove the most useful to them as guidelines.
>>
>> Anyway, I do hope that NAGDU and its list can continue to be a place
>> where thought and open discussion is encouraged for the benefit of all of
> us.
>>
>> Best,
>> Ann
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
>> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 9:34 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>>
>> Eve,
>>
>> I don't agree with your assertion that people should not be using this
>> list to find out about the various guide dog programs.  You suggest
>> that people should go directly to the source, the guide dog program.
>>
>> I view getting a guide dog like any other consumer acquisition.  Let's
>> say I'm in the market for a car.  I'm thinking about a Fordor a
>> Toyota.  I go to the Ford dealership and ask about their cars.  They
>> are going to tell me all the wonderful things about their cars and how
>> they are better than the rest.
>>
>> Then I go to the Toyota dealer and guess what? they tell me all the
>> same things except of course their cars are the best, even better than
> Ford.
>> So
>> how do I figure out what is what and who to believe?  I go to the users.
>>
>> I start asking my friends who use the products I'm interested in about
>> their experiences and satisfaction.  When I'm out and about I notice
>> the products I'm interested in in use.  I make a note of whether or
>> not I like what I'm
>> hearing and observing.   I make my decision based on all the information 
>> I
>> have gathered.
>>
>> I think this list and others like it, are the exact right place to get
>> information about guide dogs from actual users.
>>
>> Over the years I've had a lot of conversations with a lot of guide dog
>> users and program staff.  I've been around a lot of guide dog teams
>> and have seen first hand how they work in a real life situation.  If I
>> had called the schools or read the info on their web sites I would in
>> no way have the same understanding of what they are offering.
>>
>> All that said I think there absolutely needs to be respectful discussion.
>> Perhaps I have a much higher tolerance for negativity than others, but
>> I rarely see bashing or flaming on this list.  I'm totally okay with
>> people respectfully disagreeing with an idea.  I also think it's very
>> important for people to limit their sharing with firsthand accounts.
>> The stuff that begins with my next door neighbor's, hairdressers
>> brother had a guide dog from XYZ and I heard it was horrid are truly
>> inappropriate.  I honestly see no problem with a statement like, "I
>> had a guide dog from XYZ and it was horrid."  That's not hearsay or
>> gossip.  That's a honest firsthand account.
>>
>> Anyway that's my .02 for what it's worth.
>> Julie
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Eve Sanchez
>> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 10:50 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>>
>> Yes, the issue here (that I think Marsha is trying to get across) is
>> that people are using names without knowing facts. They think they
>> know, but rumors spread and falsehoods abound and soon what is being
>> said (though well
>> meaning) is a bunch of lies that could be considered bashing. People
>> should not be learning from people on this list which schools are
>> great and which are not, because it is opinions and hear say. People
>> should be able to learn from the source they wish to investigate. What
>> we should be learning here is our own experiences of occurances,
>> how-to's, and what works for us. We can only honestly report about
>> ourselves. I am not saying anyone here would intentionally lie, but
>> people make mistakes or are just plain wrong.
>> When the names are thrown out with false formation or the bashing
>> comments, it does cause blood pressures to rise. As for me, I am
>> getting sick of this entire thread. The rules are laid out. Accept
>> them. If people want to quit the list because they cannot handle the
>> rules then good riddance. Can we get back to talking about our dogs
>> now? Eve
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 7:28 PM, Sheila Leigland
>> <sleigland at bresnan.net>
>> wrote:
>>> Well said, there is a big difference between honest discussion
>>> between handlers and putting others down for the choices that they need
> to make.
>>>
>>> Sheila Leigland
>>>
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