[nagdu] Guide Longevity; was: Naming names
Dmgina
dmgina at samobile.net
Thu Apr 25 18:35:51 UTC 2013
I will be 70 when I would get a dog.
Dar
Every Saint has a past,
Every sinner has a future,
On Apr 25, 2013, at 10:44 AM, "Larry D. Keeler" <lkeeler at comcast.net> wrote:
> I sure want dogs and intend to spend my life going through all of there life cycles. If you want a long lived guide, use a horse or person. I expect to get 10 years or so out of Holly. And another few years with her after she retires. Then, of to the next one. I'm sure they will all have something new to teach!
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Star Gazer" <pickrellrebecca at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 10:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Longevity; was: Naming names
>
>
>> Yes, Ann, this is very well put.
>> I paused for a bit when I read Ken's post about wanting his dog to be his
>> last. That didn't seem right or healthy to me.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ann Edie
>> Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 4:45 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Longevity; was: Naming names
>>
>> Hi, Ken,
>>
>> Don't sell yourself short. The sad fact is that the average guide dog works
>> only about 5-6 years (from surveys of guide dog handlers, not the "info"
>> that the guide dog programs put out.) And the life span of today's
>> human-bred dogs is pitifully short, in any case. So I hope that no matter
>> how wonderful Ace is as a guide, that you do get the chance to experience
>> one or more successor dogs. Myself, I found it very wrenching to go through
>> the loss of a succession of such close partners and the emotional Russian
>> roulette of wondering whether the next one I fell in love with would work
>> out as a mobility partner or would do his darndest to shorten my stay on
>> Earth. So, for the past 10 years I have been partnered with the most
>> engaging and completely competent miniature horse guide, Panda. She is now
>> 12 years old, and I have the prospect of another decade or more of exemplary
>> guide service from her and more years than that of companionship and shared
>> adventures. And even though I just turned 65, I'm not ruling out the
>> possibility of successor guides or perhaps even concurrent ones. My parents
>> are both still going pretty strong as they approach 90, and I had a great
>> grandmother who lived to be 103, so I'm planning for the long term. I hope
>> the same longevity for you and the same (in doggy terms) for Ace.
>>
>> Best,
>> Ann
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Ace
>> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 5:35 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>>
>> Ann;
>> Thank you, I have certainly been blessed with the pairing up of Ace and I
>> and this could be both good and bad. Ace's goal in life is to outlive my
>> sorry ass because I don't think I could adjust to another. The good part of
>> this scenario is that I am already 72 so Ace has a good chance of fulfilling
>> his goal.
>> Ken & Ace
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ann Edie
>> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 7:46 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>>
>> Hi, Ken,
>>
>> One of the marvelous characteristics of my first dog was that other animals
>> seemed to be completely invisible to him. We could walk within inches of a
>> cat and Bailey wouldn't even flinch. I lived out in the country, so I
>> specifically asked for a dog which would ignore both live wild animals and
>> roadkill. Bailey fulfilled this need perfectly. He would not even break
>> his stride when a band of deer would bound across the road mere feet in
>> front of us. He would walk neatly around the dead possums or whatever was
>> in our path instead of stopping to sniff, or worse. When I lived in a house
>> in Newton while attending grad school, the upstairs cat would come down to
>> my apartment and rub herself under Bailey's belly, and all he would do was
>> to come sit on my feet or go behind the breakfast bar to avoid having to
>> deal with the cat, and that was when he was out of harness and free to just
>> be a dog! He would also ignore my kids' toys and my pet dog's food (as long
>> as it was in the bowl--if pieces of kibble were left about on the floor,
>> then Bailey considered it his duty to clean them up.) So I guess I was
>> really spoiled by this, my first guide dog, although my pet dogs had always
>> been very well behaved also. I was definitely not prepared for the nutty
>> behavior I saw in my 2nd and third guide dogs. I was willing to do whatever
>> the trainers suggested to try to solve the problems, but things just seemed
>> to go from bad to worse.
>>
>> I wish you continued good luck and success with all your present and future
>> guides. Having confidence in your program of choice is the most important
>> element, I think. If you can be open with them when you do have questions,
>> and if they are open with you about the characteristics and quirks of each
>> dog they match you with, then I think you can enjoy a long and happy
>> relationship with the training program.
>>
>> Best,
>> Ann
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Ace
>> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 1:03 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>>
>> Ann,
>> Thank you for sharing. Apparently I was and am very lucky as I did little
>> research and was just happy that there was a school in my area. SEGDI is
>> only about 30 miles from home and I was on the list for about a year. Ace
>> has only barked three times in almost two years and two dogs bilged out of
>> the program two weeks in for barking during dinner. I was walking between
>> buildings at the VA Hospital just the other day and there were two squirrels
>> just about three feet from the sidewalk. Ace looked over and gave one little
>> whine but never tugged on the lead or broke his stride. So I could be
>> spoiled but the school I attended was very strict about those things.
>> Ken & Ace
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ann Edie
>> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 3:26 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>>
>> Hi, All,
>>
>> I agree completely with what Julie has said. Furthermore, I can't imagine a
>> list associated with the NFB not permitting its members to speak their
>> honest opinions clearly and respectfully to other consumers who have the
>> right to the most accurate and complete information possible to help them
>> make informed decisions about how they meet the challenges of living as
>> blind people. If we cannot learn the truth from each other, from whom will
>> we learn it? If we are afraid to speak the name of a guide dog school in
>> connection to anything less than abject praise, then how can we stand tall
>> as self-respecting blind consumers and first-class citizens? Are we so
>> afraid of the schools that we cannot even honestly answer questions from our
>> fellow blind persons about our own firsthand experiences with a service
>> which, after all, is designed specifically for us as blind people? From
>> whom, then, are prospective guide dog users supposed to learn about the
>> differences, strengths, and weaknesses of the various guide dog programs?
>> If there really would be retaliation of some kind against guide dog handlers
>> who spoke honestly about their experiences, then NAGDU really does have an
>> advocacy cause to address here.
>>
>> And NO, I am not saying that school bashing, or anyone else-bashing, is
>> okay. I'm just saying that stating one's experience with a school or a
>> trainer or a dog from a particular school seems to me not only to be
>> completely appropriate for this list, but indeed very much part of the core
>> mission of this list.
>>
>> So, I will state that I received one very good working chocolate Labrador
>> retriever guide dog from The Seeing Eye in 1991, and he worked until he was
>> almost 11 years old. This doesn't mean that I had a 100% positive
>> experience with the Seeing Eye; I did disagree with a couple of their
>> policies and procedures. But they provided me with a fine product at that
>> time. And if asked by a prospective guide dog user, I would give TSE a
>> positive recommendation with a couple of caviots. I subsequently (in 2001),
>> received 2 German shepherd dogs from Fidelco, one female and one male. Both
>> of these dogs worked for only a short time, the first for only 3 months, the
>> second for almost a year. The first had a compulsive need to chase anything
>> that moved or appeared to move, animals, light beams or sparkles, and small
>> children, not just distraction or losing focus on her work, but full-out
>> barking, lunging, flipping out losing it. The second dog repeatedly bolted
>> off after cats and other dogs, including after dogs in passing cars, pulling
>> me into traffic, or pulling chairs in which I was sitting over backwards, or
>> pulling the harness and leash out of my hands and bolting off after whatever
>> it was that he saw. Needless to say, I worked earnestly with the trainers
>> and instructors from the school to try to resolve these issues, but to no
>> avail. I sent both dogs back to the school for reevaluation, in case they
>> could be considered "bad matches" and could be retrained to work as guides
>> for someone else. Neither dog was judged to be suitable for a second
>> placement. Both dogs were released from the guide program, one went to a
>> pet home, the other went to the State Police (I don't know if he made it as
>> a police dog.) I did not feel that I got the best of support from the
>> program during the year-and-a-half that I was struggling with these two
>> dogs. Based on this experience, I would not return to this program for
>> another guide dog, and I would not recommend this program to others. That
>> is my experience, and whether anyone chooses to consider it as one datapoint
>> among the many they might want to consider in their process of deciding how
>> to spend their energy and time as a consumer of guide dog training services
>> is their own decision. But I certainly don't think that anything I have
>> said could be considered flaming or spreading rumors or untruths. I think
>> people must try to get to know the other individuals on a list like this and
>> that will help them decide which individuals generally have the same values
>> as their own and therefore whose opinions might prove the most useful to
>> them as guidelines.
>>
>> Anyway, I do hope that NAGDU and its list can continue to be a place where
>> thought and open discussion is encouraged for the benefit of all of us.
>>
>> Best,
>> Ann
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
>> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 9:34 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>>
>> Eve,
>>
>> I don't agree with your assertion that people should not be using this list
>> to find out about the various guide dog programs. You suggest that people
>> should go directly to the source, the guide dog program.
>>
>> I view getting a guide dog like any other consumer acquisition. Let's say
>> I'm in the market for a car. I'm thinking about a Fordor a Toyota. I go to
>> the Ford dealership and ask about their cars. They are going to tell me all
>> the wonderful things about their cars and how they are better than the rest.
>>
>> Then I go to the Toyota dealer and guess what? they tell me all the same
>> things except of course their cars are the best, even better than Ford. So
>> how do I figure out what is what and who to believe? I go to the users.
>>
>> I start asking my friends who use the products I'm interested in about their
>> experiences and satisfaction. When I'm out and about I notice the products
>> I'm interested in in use. I make a note of whether or not I like what I'm
>> hearing and observing. I make my decision based on all the information I
>> have gathered.
>>
>> I think this list and others like it, are the exact right place to get
>> information about guide dogs from actual users.
>>
>> Over the years I've had a lot of conversations with a lot of guide dog users
>> and program staff. I've been around a lot of guide dog teams and have seen
>> first hand how they work in a real life situation. If I had called the
>> schools or read the info on their web sites I would in no way have the same
>> understanding of what they are offering.
>>
>> All that said I think there absolutely needs to be respectful discussion.
>> Perhaps I have a much higher tolerance for negativity than others, but I
>> rarely see bashing or flaming on this list. I'm totally okay with people
>> respectfully disagreeing with an idea. I also think it's very important for
>> people to limit their sharing with firsthand accounts. The stuff that
>> begins with my next door neighbor's, hairdressers brother had a guide dog
>> from XYZ and I heard it was horrid are truly inappropriate. I honestly see
>> no problem with a statement like, "I had a guide dog from XYZ and it was
>> horrid." That's not hearsay or gossip. That's a honest firsthand account.
>>
>> Anyway that's my .02 for what it's worth.
>> Julie
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Eve Sanchez
>> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 10:50 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>>
>> Yes, the issue here (that I think Marsha is trying to get across) is that
>> people are using names without knowing facts. They think they know, but
>> rumors spread and falsehoods abound and soon what is being said (though well
>> meaning) is a bunch of lies that could be considered bashing. People should
>> not be learning from people on this list which schools are great and which
>> are not, because it is opinions and hear say. People should be able to learn
>> from the source they wish to investigate. What we should be learning here is
>> our own experiences of occurances, how-to's, and what works for us. We can
>> only honestly report about ourselves. I am not saying anyone here would
>> intentionally lie, but people make mistakes or are just plain wrong.
>> When the names are thrown out with false formation or the bashing comments,
>> it does cause blood pressures to rise. As for me, I am getting sick of this
>> entire thread. The rules are laid out. Accept them. If people want to quit
>> the list because they cannot handle the rules then good riddance. Can we get
>> back to talking about our dogs now? Eve
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 7:28 PM, Sheila Leigland <sleigland at bresnan.net>
>> wrote:
>>> Well said, there is a big difference between honest discussion between
>>> handlers and putting others down for the choices that they need to make.
>>>
>>> Sheila Leigland
>>>
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