[nagdu] Crack down on fraudulent service dog ID's and Gear
Tracie Inman
tracieinman at yahoo.com
Sat Aug 17 14:25:37 UTC 2013
I agree with Marion. However, how do businesses, authorities, etc identify the service animal as a legitimate service animal when they aren't permitted to ask for ID (and the ID may be fake anyway)? This question was asked by the manager of our time-share condo community. People were bringing in dogs who they claim are "comfort service dogs" and "self-trained seizure dogs". The manager stated that one such "service dog" wouldn't even walk on the leash. There needs to be some way of identifying true service animals from fraudulent ones so that those that are fraudulently identifying a "pet" as a service animal may be persecuted for doing so. Tracie & LD Naulee Joy
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Today's Topics:
1. Petition to ask the US Department of Justice to take action
to stop fraudulent use of service dog ID or gear.
(National Association of Guide Dog Users)
2. Re: Colorado Association of Guide Dog Users division meeting
tonight, 8/15/13 (National Association of Guide Dog Users)
3. Outside the Box (Ken Ace)
4. Re: Colorado Association of Guide Dog Users divisionmeeting
tonight, 8/15/13 (Daniel)
5. Re: Petition to ask the US Department of Justice to take
action to stop fraudulent use of service dog ID or gear. (Tami Jarvis)
6. Re: Outside the Box (Tami Jarvis)
7. Re: Colorado Association of Guide Dog Users division meeting
tonight, 8/15/13 (Tina Thomas)
8. Re: Petition to ask the US Department of Justice to take
action to stop fraudulent use of service dog ID or gear.
(harold leigland)
9. Re: Petition to ask the US Department of Justice to take
action to stop fraudulent use of service dog ID or gear. (Tami Jarvis)
10. Re: Colorado Association of Guide Dog Users divisionmeeting
tonight, 8/15/13 (National Association of Guide Dog Users)
11. Fw: Welcome to the "Micgdu" mailing list (Larry D. Keeler)
12. Suggestions needed! (Tami Jarvis)
13. Re: Suggestions needed! (Larry D. Keeler)
14. Re: Suggestions needed! (Nicole Torcolini)
15. Re: Suggestions needed! (Tami Jarvis)
16. Re: Suggestions needed! (Nicole Torcolini)
17. Re: Suggestions needed! (Larry D. Keeler)
18. Re: Suggestions needed! (Larry D. Keeler)
19. Re: Suggestions needed! (Nicole Torcolini)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 09:49:18 -0400
From: "National Association of Guide Dog Users" <blind411 at verizon.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [nagdu] Petition to ask the US Department of Justice to take
action to stop fraudulent use of service dog ID or gear.
Message-ID: <00e701ce9a87$67f0a650$37d1f2f0$@verizon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
William,
I think it would serve us better if each state would enact penalties
criminalizing the deceptive assertion that an animal is a service animal.
Most states have similar statutes that read something like, "It is unlawful
for anyone not legally blind to carry in a raised or extended position a
cane that is white or white tipped in red." Perhaps the clause could read,
"It is unlawful for any person to fraudulently assert that an animal is a
service animal under federal law." I fear that the prohibition of selling
service animal gear may limit the availability of such gear to those of us
wishing alternatives to that gear issued by the training program. One of the
provisions training programs hold over the heads of their consumers is the
retention of ownership of the guide dog gear and the right to repossess that
gear. At the same time, I would agree that there could be a crack-down on
the sale of service animal identification cards and other such
documentation, similar to those prohibiting counterfeit state and federal
identification. Just my opinion!
Fraternally yours,
Marion Gwizdala
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of William
Vandervest
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 9:20 PM
To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: [nagdu] {Disarmed} Fw: [leader-dogs-l] Petition to ask the US
Department of Justice to take action to stop fraudulent use of service dog
ID or gear.
There are none so blind as those who will not see
William and LD Lynard
----- Original Message -----
From: Sarah Calhoun
To: List Leader
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 5:26 PM
Subject: [leader-dogs-l] Petition to ask the US Department of Justice to
take action to stop fraudulent use of service dog ID or gear.
Hello everyone,
There is a petition to ask the US Department of Justice to take action to
stop fraudulent use of service dog ID or gear. You can find the petition
at: www.cci.org/stopfraud
Signers of the petition receive a letter like the one below:
Thank you for asking the Department of Justice to investigate and stop the
online sale of fraudulent service dog products.
Please forward this message and urge your friends to add their names at
www.cci.org/stopfraud
With your help, we can raise awareness about this important issue and demand
an end to the sale of fake service dog products.
Thank you for all that you do.
Canine Companions for Independence
Thank you for considering in signing this worthwhile petition.
Sarah Calhoun
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 10:15:15 -0400
From: "National Association of Guide Dog Users" <blind411 at verizon.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Colorado Association of Guide Dog Users division
meeting tonight, 8/15/13
Message-ID: <00f901ce9a8b$0779fd90$166df8b0$@verizon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Marty,
I attempted to join the call last night at 9:03 EDT but found no one
there. Would that not have been 7:03 Mountain or not? Please let me know for
future reference!
Fraternally yours,
Marion Gwizdala, President
National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
National Federation of the Blind
(813) 626-2789 (Office)
888-NAGDU411 (Hotline
President at nagdu.org
www.nagdu.org
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marty Rahn
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 4:32 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: [nagdu] Colorado Association of Guide Dog Users division meeting
tonight, 8/15/13
Hello
The Colorado Association of Guide Dog Users will be meeting tonight at
6:30PM MST via conference call. To join the call, please dial 712-432-1500
access code 564151#.
If you have any questions please e-mail Melissa Green at:
graduate56 at juno.com
We will be discussing future calls, meeting at state convention and possibly
the election of a board.
Sincerely,
Marty Rahn
____________________________________________________________
Fast, Secure, NetZero 4G Mobile Broadband. Try it.
http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT2
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 11:44:38 -0400
From: "Ken Ace" <ken at acenovels.com>
To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [nagdu] Outside the Box
Message-ID: <000b01ce9a97$90233a10$b069ae30$@acenovels.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I know that this may infuriate some members but sometimes we need to think
outside the box to insure forward movement with less resistance.
As an example, I am of the opinion that if the gun background check
supporters had tied the approval to ones driver's license or ID that it
would have passed with flying colors like the organ donor issue.
With that in mind if we had lets say a "Two Bark" you're out rule it might
go forward easier and actually I think that is what our real objection is. I
don't have a problem with a service animal as long as it is quiet and
seemingly invisible. Just a thought.
K&A
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 09:53:45 -0600
From: "Daniel" <daniel.sweeney1 at comcast.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Colorado Association of Guide Dog Users
divisionmeeting tonight, 8/15/13
Message-ID: <E8D7C869132040F18F80D44FD88252AE at DHZKMLM1>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Marian,
Daniel Sweeney here, there was apparently a problem with the conference
call. Some people were connected fine, and some people only heard music on
their end. Needless to say the two groups never made a joining and neither
knew about the other. The call was cut short, and is being rescheduled for a
later date. I believe the date of August 29th is being considered but I
don't think it is set in stone as of yet.
As soon as there is a confirmed date, it will be posted. Sorry for the
confusion, we'll get there yet.
Sincerely,
Daniel Sweeney and Cass,
Lakewood, Colorado
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of National
Association of Guide Dog Users
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 8:15 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Colorado Association of Guide Dog Users divisionmeeting
tonight, 8/15/13
Marty,
I attempted to join the call last night at 9:03 EDT but found no one
there. Would that not have been 7:03 Mountain or not? Please let me know for
future reference!
Fraternally yours,
Marion Gwizdala, President
National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
National Federation of the Blind
(813) 626-2789 (Office)
888-NAGDU411 (Hotline
President at nagdu.org
www.nagdu.org
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marty Rahn
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 4:32 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: [nagdu] Colorado Association of Guide Dog Users division meeting
tonight, 8/15/13
Hello
The Colorado Association of Guide Dog Users will be meeting tonight at
6:30PM MST via conference call. To join the call, please dial 712-432-1500
access code 564151#.
If you have any questions please e-mail Melissa Green at:
graduate56 at juno.com
We will be discussing future calls, meeting at state convention and possibly
the election of a board.
Sincerely,
Marty Rahn
____________________________________________________________
Fast, Secure, NetZero 4G Mobile Broadband. Try it.
http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT2
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nagdu mailing list
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.net
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 09:46:08 -0700
From: Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Petition to ask the US Department of Justice to
take action to stop fraudulent use of service dog ID or gear.
Message-ID: <520E5750.9060702 at poodlemutt.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Marion,
Yes, dealing meaningfully with the people fraudulently passing off their
pets as service dogs would go much further, I think, to stem the problem.
So would education of businesses about their right to remove a dog that
is misbehaving. Any dog, doesn't matter if it is a service dog. If even
our dogs are out of line and we can't deal with it, then out they go! If
the dog causes damage, then we pay for it! I use my own dog to get the
point across when I am educating, since it does seem to cause lightbulbs
to flicker fitfully. Businesses do not have to be afraid of service dogs
or that the dog eating food off the fine white linen is a service dog or
anything like that. I would recommend they get video of the misbehavior,
then have the dog removed.
I am going to have to start pointing out that the phrase "fake service
dog gear" is absolutely meaningless. It's just stuff. It has nothing to
do with public access and never has. So there is no such thing as "real
service dog gear." Ignore it. If a dog is wearing a patch, then there is
a dog with a patch. Has nothing to do with whether the person may bring
the dog into your business and does not give the person a legal pass and
does not make it legal for the person to let the dog tear things up.
I think all this hoopla over the gear really just increases the confusion.
I also find it pretty rich that programs like CCI are driving that
bandwagon. Who has been passing out nifty ID cards and telling their
grads to show them to people as proof of their right to bring their
service dogs in? Who puts all those little patches and capes on the dogs
so that people will know they are service dogs and can come into places
of public access? Who has really caused the problem by misinforming
business and the general public all these years? So those of us who know
our legal rights and will not use ID or accept being asked for it have
two problems. We have to keep educating around the misinformation while
some fool with a service dog patch on his pet just waltzes right in.
It gets old.
It also gets old, I will add, hearing all about how it's the fakes and
frauds that behave badly and cause problems for real service dog users.
Well, also, it's owner-trainers who are just plain irresponsible and
don't know what they are doing, of course not.
Meanwhile, a lot of us have had to deal with program dogs. I'm not the
only one who is not worried about Fluffy because Fluffy has never done a
dang thing to me. It's the dog from whatever the bleep training program
that is in my experience likely to be a problem for me and my dog. It's
dogs from training programs that have nearly cost me my guide and her
training more than once. And resulted in my having to do *a lot* of
retraining to use my guide in places of public accommodation. I'm not
the only service dog user out there who is really tired of putting up
with that.
If folks know and will apply the law to deal with problem dogs --
regardless of service dog status -- then we can possibly hope for fewer
problem dogs when we go into places of public accommodation.
Tami
On 08/16/2013 06:49 AM, National Association of Guide Dog Users wrote:
> William,
> I think it would serve us better if each state would enact penalties
> criminalizing the deceptive assertion that an animal is a service animal.
> Most states have similar statutes that read something like, "It is unlawful
> for anyone not legally blind to carry in a raised or extended position a
> cane that is white or white tipped in red." Perhaps the clause could read,
> "It is unlawful for any person to fraudulently assert that an animal is a
> service animal under federal law." I fear that the prohibition of selling
> service animal gear may limit the availability of such gear to those of us
> wishing alternatives to that gear issued by the training program. One of the
> provisions training programs hold over the heads of their consumers is the
> retention of ownership of the guide dog gear and the right to repossess that
> gear. At the same time, I would agree that there could be a crack-down on
> the sale of service animal identification cards and other such
> documentation, similar to those prohibiting counterfeit state and federal
> identification. Just my opinion!
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of William
> Vandervest
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 9:20 PM
> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] {Disarmed} Fw: [leader-dogs-l] Petition to ask the US
> Department of Justice to take action to stop fraudulent use of service dog
> ID or gear.
>
>
> There are none so blind as those who will not see
>
> William and LD Lynard
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sarah Calhoun
> To: List Leader
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 5:26 PM
> Subject: [leader-dogs-l] Petition to ask the US Department of Justice to
> take action to stop fraudulent use of service dog ID or gear.
>
>
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> There is a petition to ask the US Department of Justice to take action to
> stop fraudulent use of service dog ID or gear. You can find the petition
> at: www.cci.org/stopfraud
>
> Signers of the petition receive a letter like the one below:
>
> Thank you for asking the Department of Justice to investigate and stop the
> online sale of fraudulent service dog products.
>
> Please forward this message and urge your friends to add their names at
> www.cci.org/stopfraud
>
> With your help, we can raise awareness about this important issue and demand
> an end to the sale of fake service dog products.
>
> Thank you for all that you do.
>
> Canine Companions for Independence
>
> Thank you for considering in signing this worthwhile petition.
>
> Sarah Calhoun
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> __._,_.___Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New
> Topic Messages in this topic (1)
>
> Recent Activity:
> Visit Your Group
> Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest . Unsubscribe . Terms of Use . Send us
> Feedback .
>
> __,_._,___
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 10:02:25 -0700
From: Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Outside the Box
Message-ID: <520E5B21.1010703 at poodlemutt.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Ken,
Oh, that would be too easy! /lol/ There are some pretty clear guidelines
for what is considered inappropriate behavior on the DOJ Fact Sheet and
the ADA Q&A. I found it interesting to note that one or the other states
that barking is not cause for legal removal. Hm... Well, dogs do bark. I
would not want one that came into my business to just sit and bark its
fool head off without cease, that's for sure! But a bark or two that is
successfully quieted is not the same.
The training programs have done a really great job, I think, of
developing rules and a sense of etiquette and teaching their grads to
use good etiquette in public. Owner-trainers use those same guidelines
in training and handling their own dogs. Well, most do; just as most
program grads do. The point of having the service dog is to make life
easier; public ruckus defeats that goal. So one is pretty motivated to
do the extra work to achieve the goal by ensuring the dog is fit to be
in public.
Still... You have me wondering if it would be useful to sort of write up
a list of rules of etiquette? Two barks, you're out... Or maybe three
barks, like baseball! /lol/
I dunno... To so many of the guide and other service dog users I know,
the etiquette seems so obvious... And it flows from a simple sense of
responsibility. But maybe an Emily Post kinda thing would help more of
us do better?
Would something like a list of guidelines also be useful in educating
businesses, JQP (John Q. Public), et al., as well? Hm...
You may be on to something!
Tami
On 08/16/2013 08:44 AM, Ken Ace wrote:
> I know that this may infuriate some members but sometimes we need to think
> outside the box to insure forward movement with less resistance.
>
> As an example, I am of the opinion that if the gun background check
> supporters had tied the approval to ones driver's license or ID that it
> would have passed with flying colors like the organ donor issue.
>
> With that in mind if we had lets say a "Two Bark" you're out rule it might
> go forward easier and actually I think that is what our real objection is. I
> don't have a problem with a service animal as long as it is quiet and
> seemingly invisible. Just a thought.
>
> K&A
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tami%40poodlemutt.com
>
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 10:17:42 -0700
From: "Tina Thomas" <judotina48kg at gmail.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Colorado Association of Guide Dog Users division
meeting tonight, 8/15/13
Message-ID: <000701ce9aa4$8fb04110$af10c330$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hello- Marion- I was able to join the call, however, we were told that
Melissa and marti were having some technical difficulties, so after 15
minutes or so, Dianne suggested that the call take place at another time.
Tina
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of National
Association of Guide Dog Users
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 7:15 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Colorado Association of Guide Dog Users division
meeting tonight, 8/15/13
Marty,
I attempted to join the call last night at 9:03 EDT but found no one
there. Would that not have been 7:03 Mountain or not? Please let me know for
future reference!
Fraternally yours,
Marion Gwizdala, President
National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
National Federation of the Blind
(813) 626-2789 (Office)
888-NAGDU411 (Hotline
President at nagdu.org
www.nagdu.org
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marty Rahn
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 4:32 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: [nagdu] Colorado Association of Guide Dog Users division meeting
tonight, 8/15/13
Hello
The Colorado Association of Guide Dog Users will be meeting tonight at
6:30PM MST via conference call. To join the call, please dial 712-432-1500
access code 564151#.
If you have any questions please e-mail Melissa Green at:
graduate56 at juno.com
We will be discussing future calls, meeting at state convention and possibly
the election of a board.
Sincerely,
Marty Rahn
____________________________________________________________
Fast, Secure, NetZero 4G Mobile Broadband. Try it.
http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT2
_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.net
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------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 15:03:52 -0600
From: harold leigland <hleigland at bresnan.net>
To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Petition to ask the US Department of Justice to
take action to stop fraudulent use of service dog ID or gear.
Message-ID: <20130816210352.hleigland at bresnan.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
thank you Tami and Marian, can you tell me what cci stands for? best regards Hal
----- Original Message -----
From: Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" nagdu at nfbnet.org
Date: Friday, August 16, 2013 10:46 am
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Petition to ask the US Department of Justice to take action to stop fraudulent use of service dog ID or gear.
>
>
> Marion,
>
> Yes, dealing meaningfully with the people fraudulently passing off their
> pets as service dogs would go much further, I think, to stem the problem.
>
> So would education of businesses about their right to remove a dog that
> is misbehaving. Any dog, doesn't matter if it is a service dog. If even
> our dogs are out of line and we can't deal with it, then out they go! If
> the dog causes damage, then we pay for it! I use my own dog to get the
> point across when I am educating, since it does seem to cause lightbulbs
> to flicker fitfully. Businesses do not have to be afraid of service dogs
> or that the dog eating food off the fine white linen is a service dog or
> anything like that. I would recommend they get video of the misbehavior,
> then have the dog removed.
>
> I am going to have to start pointing out that the phrase "fake service
> dog gear" is absolutely meaningless. It's just stuff. It has nothing to
> do with public access and never has. So there is no such thing as "real
> service dog gear." Ignore it. If a dog is wearing a patch, then there is
> a dog with a patch. Has nothing to do with whether the person may bring
> the dog into your business and does not give the person a legal pass and
> does not make it legal for the person to let the dog tear things up.
>
> I think all this hoopla over the gear really just increases the confusion.
>
> I also find it pretty rich that programs like CCI are driving that
> bandwagon. Who has been passing out nifty ID cards and telling their
> grads to show them to people as proof of their right to bring their
> service dogs in? Who puts all those little patches and capes on the dogs
> so that people will know they are service dogs and can come into places
> of public access? Who has really caused the problem by misinforming
> business and the general public all these years? So those of us who know
> our legal rights and will not use ID or accept being asked for it have
> two problems. We have to keep educating around the misinformation while
> some fool with a service dog patch on his pet just waltzes right in.
>
> It gets old.
>
> It also gets old, I will add, hearing all about how it's the fakes and
> frauds that behave badly and cause problems for real service dog users.
> Well, also, it's owner-trainers who are just plain irresponsible and
> don't know what they are doing, of course not.
>
> Meanwhile, a lot of us have had to deal with program dogs. I'm not the
> only one who is not worried about Fluffy because Fluffy has never done a
> dang thing to me. It's the dog from whatever the bleep training program
> that is in my experience likely to be a problem for me and my dog. It's
> dogs from training programs that have nearly cost me my guide and her
> training more than once. And resulted in my having to do *a lot* of
> retraining to use my guide in places of public accommodation. I'm not
> the only service dog user out there who is really tired of putting up
> with that.
>
> If folks know and will apply the law to deal with problem dogs --
> regardless of service dog status -- then we can possibly hope for fewer
> problem dogs when we go into places of public accommodation.
>
> Tami
>
> On 08/16/2013 06:49 AM, National Association of Guide Dog Users wrote:
> > William,
> > I think it would serve us better if each state would enact penalties
> > criminalizing the deceptive assertion that an animal is a service animal.
> > Most states have similar statutes that read something like, "It is unlawful
> > for anyone not legally blind to carry in a raised or extended position a
> > cane that is white or white tipped in red." Perhaps the clause could read,
> > "It is unlawful for any person to fraudulently assert that an animal is a
> > service animal under federal law." I fear that the prohibition of selling
> > service animal gear may limit the availability of such gear to those of us
> > wishing alternatives to that gear issued by the training program. One of the
> > provisions training programs hold over the heads of their consumers is the
> > retention of ownership of the guide dog gear and the right to repossess that
> > gear. At the same time, I would agree that there could be a crack-down on
> > the sale of service animal identification cards and other such
> > documentation, similar to those prohibiting counterfeit state and federal
> > identification. Just my opinion!
> >
> > Fraternally yours,
> > Marion Gwizdala
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of William
> > Vandervest
> > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 9:20 PM
> > To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> > Subject: [nagdu] {Disarmed} Fw: [leader-dogs-l] Petition to ask the US
> > Department of Justice to take action to stop fraudulent use of service dog
> > ID or gear.
> >
> >
> > There are none so blind as those who will not see
> >
> > William and LD Lynard
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Sarah Calhoun
> > To: List Leader
> > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 5:26 PM
> > Subject: [leader-dogs-l] Petition to ask the US Department of Justice to
> > take action to stop fraudulent use of service dog ID or gear.
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > There is a petition to ask the US Department of Justice to take action to
> > stop fraudulent use of service dog ID or gear. You can find the petition
> > at: www.cci.org/stopfraud
> >
> > Signers of the petition receive a letter like the one below:
> >
> > Thank you for asking the Department of Justice to investigate and stop the
> > online sale of fraudulent service dog products.
> >
> > Please forward this message and urge your friends to add their names at
> > www.cci.org/stopfraud
> >
> > With your help, we can raise awareness about this important issue and demand
> > an end to the sale of fake service dog products.
> >
> > Thank you for all that you do.
> >
> > Canine Companions for Independence
> >
> > Thank you for considering in signing this worthwhile petition.
> >
> > Sarah Calhoun
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > __._,_.___Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New
> > Topic Messages in this topic (1)
> >
> > Recent Activity:
> > Visit Your Group
> > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest . Unsubscribe . Terms of Use . Send us
> > Feedback .
> >
> > __,_._,___
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.net
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nagdu mailing list
> > nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tami%40poodlemutt.com
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/hleigland%40bresnan.net
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 14:38:35 -0700
From: Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Petition to ask the US Department of Justice to
take action to stop fraudulent use of service dog ID or gear.
Message-ID: <520E9BDB.4050701 at poodlemutt.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Hey, Hal!
CCI is Canine Companions for Independence. They are the ones sponsoring
the petition and trying to get signatures. Their reps have done some
commenting recently, too, in this or that article on the problems caused
able-bodied people passing off their pets as service dogs... Sounds like
a good thing until you add up all of the misinformation in these
comments and think of all the important information that could help to
reduce the problem that they leave out. Sigh.
That being said, CCI is a training program for several types of service
dogs, and they seem to have a very good reputation. They outfit their
dogs with patches and vests so that people will know that they are
service dogs and should be granted public access. They have done a fair
amount of public education on that score, as well.
Irony, gotta love it!
Tami
On 08/16/2013 02:03 PM, harold leigland wrote:
> thank you Tami and Marian, can you tell me what cci stands for? best regards Hal
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Date: Friday, August 16, 2013 10:46 am
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Petition to ask the US Department of Justice to take action to stop fraudulent use of service dog ID or gear.
>
>>
>>
>> Marion,
>>
>> Yes, dealing meaningfully with the people fraudulently passing off their
>> pets as service dogs would go much further, I think, to stem the problem.
>>
>> So would education of businesses about their right to remove a dog that
>> is misbehaving. Any dog, doesn't matter if it is a service dog. If even
>> our dogs are out of line and we can't deal with it, then out they go! If
>> the dog causes damage, then we pay for it! I use my own dog to get the
>> point across when I am educating, since it does seem to cause lightbulbs
>> to flicker fitfully. Businesses do not have to be afraid of service dogs
>> or that the dog eating food off the fine white linen is a service dog or
>> anything like that. I would recommend they get video of the misbehavior,
>> then have the dog removed.
>>
>> I am going to have to start pointing out that the phrase "fake service
>> dog gear" is absolutely meaningless. It's just stuff. It has nothing to
>> do with public access and never has. So there is no such thing as "real
>> service dog gear." Ignore it. If a dog is wearing a patch, then there is
>> a dog with a patch. Has nothing to do with whether the person may bring
>> the dog into your business and does not give the person a legal pass and
>> does not make it legal for the person to let the dog tear things up.
>>
>> I think all this hoopla over the gear really just increases the confusion.
>>
>> I also find it pretty rich that programs like CCI are driving that
>> bandwagon. Who has been passing out nifty ID cards and telling their
>> grads to show them to people as proof of their right to bring their
>> service dogs in? Who puts all those little patches and capes on the dogs
>> so that people will know they are service dogs and can come into places
>> of public access? Who has really caused the problem by misinforming
>> business and the general public all these years? So those of us who know
>> our legal rights and will not use ID or accept being asked for it have
>> two problems. We have to keep educating around the misinformation while
>> some fool with a service dog patch on his pet just waltzes right in.
>>
>> It gets old.
>>
>> It also gets old, I will add, hearing all about how it's the fakes and
>> frauds that behave badly and cause problems for real service dog users.
>> Well, also, it's owner-trainers who are just plain irresponsible and
>> don't know what they are doing, of course not.
>>
>> Meanwhile, a lot of us have had to deal with program dogs. I'm not the
>> only one who is not worried about Fluffy because Fluffy has never done a
>> dang thing to me. It's the dog from whatever the bleep training program
>> that is in my experience likely to be a problem for me and my dog. It's
>> dogs from training programs that have nearly cost me my guide and her
>> training more than once. And resulted in my having to do *a lot* of
>> retraining to use my guide in places of public accommodation. I'm not
>> the only service dog user out there who is really tired of putting up
>> with that.
>>
>> If folks know and will apply the law to deal with problem dogs --
>> regardless of service dog status -- then we can possibly hope for fewer
>> problem dogs when we go into places of public accommodation.
>>
>> Tami
>>
>> On 08/16/2013 06:49 AM, National Association of Guide Dog Users wrote:
>>> William,
>>> I think it would serve us better if each state would enact penalties
>>> criminalizing the deceptive assertion that an animal is a service animal.
>>> Most states have similar statutes that read something like, "It is unlawful
>>> for anyone not legally blind to carry in a raised or extended position a
>>> cane that is white or white tipped in red." Perhaps the clause could read,
>>> "It is unlawful for any person to fraudulently assert that an animal is a
>>> service animal under federal law." I fear that the prohibition of selling
>>> service animal gear may limit the availability of such gear to those of us
>>> wishing alternatives to that gear issued by the training program. One of the
>>> provisions training programs hold over the heads of their consumers is the
>>> retention of ownership of the guide dog gear and the right to repossess that
>>> gear. At the same time, I would agree that there could be a crack-down on
>>> the sale of service animal identification cards and other such
>>> documentation, similar to those prohibiting counterfeit state and federal
>>> identification. Just my opinion!
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of William
>>> Vandervest
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 9:20 PM
>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: [nagdu] {Disarmed} Fw: [leader-dogs-l] Petition to ask the US
>>> Department of Justice to take action to stop fraudulent use of service dog
>>> ID or gear.
>>>
>>>
>>> There are none so blind as those who will not see
>>>
>>> William and LD Lynard
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Sarah Calhoun
>>> To: List Leader
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 5:26 PM
>>> Subject: [leader-dogs-l] Petition to ask the US Department of Justice to
>>> take action to stop fraudulent use of service dog ID or gear.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello everyone,
>>>
>>> There is a petition to ask the US Department of Justice to take action to
>>> stop fraudulent use of service dog ID or gear. You can find the petition
>>> at: www.cci.org/stopfraud
>>>
>>> Signers of the petition receive a letter like the one below:
>>>
>>> Thank you for asking the Department of Justice to investigate and stop the
>>> online sale of fraudulent service dog products.
>>>
>>> Please forward this message and urge your friends to add their names at
>>> www.cci.org/stopfraud
>>>
>>> With your help, we can raise awareness about this important issue and demand
>>> an end to the sale of fake service dog products.
>>>
>>> Thank you for all that you do.
>>>
>>> Canine Companions for Independence
>>>
>>> Thank you for considering in signing this worthwhile petition.
>>>
>>> Sarah Calhoun
>>>
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> __._,_.___Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New
>>> Topic Messages in this topic (1)
>>>
>>> Recent Activity:
>>> Visit Your Group
>>> Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest . Unsubscribe . Terms of Use . Send us
>>> Feedback .
>>>
>>> __,_._,___
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tami%40poodlemutt.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/hleigland%40bresnan.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
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>
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 17:41:55 -0400
From: "National Association of Guide Dog Users" <blind411 at verizon.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Colorado Association of Guide Dog Users
divisionmeeting tonight, 8/15/13
Message-ID: <015901ce9ac9$6d91d1a0$48b574e0$@verizon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Daniel,
When I called in at 9:03 EDT, I was told I was the first caller. I
made three attempts to make sure I had the number and codes correct. Just
for my information for future calls, the time zone cited in the message was
MST, was this correct or should it have been MDT? I am in EDT until
November, I believe, when we will return to standard time, one hour earlier.
Please make sure that the announcements sent have the correct time zone
listed. Thanks a bunch!
Marion Gwizdala
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Daniel
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 11:54 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Colorado Association of Guide Dog Users divisionmeeting
tonight, 8/15/13
Hi Marian,
Daniel Sweeney here, there was apparently a problem with the conference
call. Some people were connected fine, and some people only heard music on
their end. Needless to say the two groups never made a joining and neither
knew about the other. The call was cut short, and is being rescheduled for a
later date. I believe the date of August 29th is being considered but I
don't think it is set in stone as of yet.
As soon as there is a confirmed date, it will be posted. Sorry for the
confusion, we'll get there yet.
Sincerely,
Daniel Sweeney and Cass,
Lakewood, Colorado
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of National
Association of Guide Dog Users
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 8:15 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Colorado Association of Guide Dog Users divisionmeeting
tonight, 8/15/13
Marty,
I attempted to join the call last night at 9:03 EDT but found no one
there. Would that not have been 7:03 Mountain or not? Please let me know for
future reference!
Fraternally yours,
Marion Gwizdala, President
National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
National Federation of the Blind
(813) 626-2789 (Office)
888-NAGDU411 (Hotline
President at nagdu.org
www.nagdu.org
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marty Rahn
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 4:32 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: [nagdu] Colorado Association of Guide Dog Users division meeting
tonight, 8/15/13
Hello
The Colorado Association of Guide Dog Users will be meeting tonight at
6:30PM MST via conference call. To join the call, please dial 712-432-1500
access code 564151#.
If you have any questions please e-mail Melissa Green at:
graduate56 at juno.com
We will be discussing future calls, meeting at state convention and possibly
the election of a board.
Sincerely,
Marty Rahn
____________________________________________________________
Fast, Secure, NetZero 4G Mobile Broadband. Try it.
http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT2
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/daniel.sweeney1%40comcast
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------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 19:42:36 -0400
From: "Larry D. Keeler" <lkeeler at comcast.net>
To: "doggie" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: NFB of Michigan Internet Mailing List <nfbmi-talk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [nagdu] Fw: Welcome to the "Micgdu" mailing list
Message-ID: <D1945EDAE3634423B30067F93CFA50AC at yourec0540d030>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Its finally here! this is our link to the Michigan Guide Dog committee! Hope
to see some Michiganders hop aboard! And, we'll even accept posts from that
state below us! However, we'll be using this list link to discuss and
organize Michigan guide dog buisness!
----- Original Message -----
From: <micgdu-request at nfbnet.org>
To: <lkeeler at comcast.net>
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 3:02 PM
Subject: Welcome to the "Micgdu" mailing list
> Welcome to the Micgdu at nfbnet.org mailing list! This list is sponsored
> by the National Federation of the Blind, NFB, and the NFB of Michigan.
>
>
> The purpose of the list is to help organize and grow our guide dog
> users committee. It will be used to share information pertaining to
> guide dog issues. Some examples are, public access, housing,
> transportation, and dog health and well being. We will also use this
> list to announce and organize state meetings and also for information
> from the National Guide Dog users group. Our goal is to become an
> affiliate of the Nation Association of Guide Dog Users a strong and
> proud divission of the National Federation of the Blind.
>
>
>
> To post to this list, send your message to:
>
> micgdu at nfbnet.org
>
> General information about the mailing list is at:
>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/micgdu_nfbnet.org
>
> If you ever want to unsubscribe or change your options (eg, switch to
> or from digest mode, change your password, etc.), visit your
> subscription page at:
>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/micgdu_nfbnet.org/lkeeler%40comcast.net
>
>
> You can also make such adjustments via email by sending a message to:
>
> Micgdu-request at nfbnet.org
>
> with the word `help' in the subject or body (don't include the
> quotes), and you will get back a message with instructions.
>
> You must know your password to change your options (including changing
> the password, itself) or to unsubscribe without confirmation. It is:
>
> ehpohamo
>
> Normally, Mailman will remind you of your nfbnet.org mailing list
> passwords once every month, although you can disable this if you
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> your options page that will email your current password to you.
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 19:39:59 -0700
From: Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
Message-ID: <520EE27F.8010500 at poodlemutt.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Okay, following up on Ken's suggestion, I opened my mouth and now have a
writing project. I blame Ken! /grin/
Seriously, I do think it might be nice to have some semi-formalized
collection of those rules of etiquette that most of us here just take
for granted and that we work so diligently to follow. The
"responsibilities" part of our rights and responsibilities. Most of
those I have learned from a lot of you, whether it's what you learned
from your schools or the experience of years of real world guide dog
use. So this seemed a good place to ask again! /smile/
What do we -- with "we" being responsible, considerate service dog users
-- consider important when we take our dogs into public? What is good
etiquette in our dogs? What is good etiquette for us humans?
I'm thinking of a couple of categories for the dogs:
1) Grooming and health
2) public behavior
For the humans... I haven't figured out neat categories for that yet.
I'm thinking of good dog management -- keep the dog out of the aisle,
stuff like that. Maybe a bit about how to manage lines and so forth.
I think I'll include a "what to do when..." As we have seen from the
convention debriefing... Not everybody knows that it's bad form to walk
off and leave the smelling mess for someone to step in. Ugh! And what
about those times your perfectly well trained dog goes klepto in the
supermarket? I say pay for it; others say, "oh, well." I've only had to
buy an unintended stuffed animal, if anyone is wondering. /lol/
I have a few items I might address for interactions with other service
dog users... Hm...
Anyway, if anyone has suggestions they would like to see included, you
can write me off list at tami at poodlemutt.com. It might also be fun to
discuss some of these things on the list. I'm thinking of the recent
discussion about riding in cabs. We all have different ways of doing the
same thing and smoothing over the rough spots we encounter in a crowded
busy world.
Tami
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 23:12:58 -0400
From: "Larry D. Keeler" <lkeeler at comcast.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
Message-ID: <C052094534BB4DF0B593D418B9D384D6 at yourec0540d030>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=response
Tami, I think the formost issue with me is does the dog behave when asked
and does the handler know how to handle the dog! Grooming and general health
is also important because iether the dog may be bringing its own pets with
it or sometimes, Not always, it can reflect badly on the handler. A handler
may be slipping in maintaining the dogs appearance due to lack of money,
time or just lack of interest. I know that many folks will disaggree with me
but I also think that an ID, tradmark harness or for owner trained teams
some kind of state issued sticker be obtained so that a service dog can be
distinguished from any other dog. A perfect example is my dughters friend.
She has a jack Russell terrier named Trouble! She is a owner trained hearing
dog. The dog is cute and well behaved but, I can forsee many folks confusing
her with a pet. For me, I wonder wher the line between being private about
why you need a dog and what that dog does for you conflicts with the general
publics seeming need to declare there dogs as service dogs! At some point,
there has to be a clear line instead of the big grey void folks seem to have
now. I met a woman at the train station last year on the way to convention.
William and I were taking the train and I sure hope she wasn't! At least she
wasn't in our car! Anyway, she had a little terier, and the thing barked,
growled and tried to come at our dogs! She had to walk down the tracks quite
away down the tracks and her dog was still going off! Interestingly, she
claimed it was for PTSD. That thing would have caused it instead of
relieving it! I really didn't know how to handle the situation other than
william and I controlling our dogs while hers cut loose! I mean, who or how
do you report a situation where the dog is clearly in dubious territory
iether because of its or the handlers lack of controlling behavior? At least
with guide dogs you can call a school or talk to a friend and check to see
if the behavior is normal for a service dog! And, I can tell good owner
trainers because they keep there dogs under control. I wonder what or how
penalties can be assessed to folks who are not being truthful about the
service or lack of services that the dog performs. As long as there is no
requirment that can't be faked or we are not required to have some proof
that the dog does the service. we'll always have folks sneaking nonservice
animals under the wire!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tami Jarvis" <tami at poodlemutt.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 10:39 PM
Subject: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
> Okay, following up on Ken's suggestion, I opened my mouth and now have a
> writing project. I blame Ken! /grin/
>
> Seriously, I do think it might be nice to have some semi-formalized
> collection of those rules of etiquette that most of us here just take for
> granted and that we work so diligently to follow. The "responsibilities"
> part of our rights and responsibilities. Most of those I have learned from
> a lot of you, whether it's what you learned from your schools or the
> experience of years of real world guide dog use. So this seemed a good
> place to ask again! /smile/
>
> What do we -- with "we" being responsible, considerate service dog
> users -- consider important when we take our dogs into public? What is
> good etiquette in our dogs? What is good etiquette for us humans?
>
> I'm thinking of a couple of categories for the dogs:
>
> 1) Grooming and health
> 2) public behavior
>
> For the humans... I haven't figured out neat categories for that yet. I'm
> thinking of good dog management -- keep the dog out of the aisle, stuff
> like that. Maybe a bit about how to manage lines and so forth.
>
> I think I'll include a "what to do when..." As we have seen from the
> convention debriefing... Not everybody knows that it's bad form to walk
> off and leave the smelling mess for someone to step in. Ugh! And what
> about those times your perfectly well trained dog goes klepto in the
> supermarket? I say pay for it; others say, "oh, well." I've only had to
> buy an unintended stuffed animal, if anyone is wondering. /lol/
>
> I have a few items I might address for interactions with other service dog
> users... Hm...
>
> Anyway, if anyone has suggestions they would like to see included, you can
> write me off list at tami at poodlemutt.com. It might also be fun to discuss
> some of these things on the list. I'm thinking of the recent discussion
> about riding in cabs. We all have different ways of doing the same thing
> and smoothing over the rough spots we encounter in a crowded busy world.
>
> Tami
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/lkeeler%40comcast.net
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 20:27:19 -0700
From: "Nicole Torcolini" <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
Message-ID: <13BC3838F38F4D4982EE1A2D22A56697 at NicoleDell>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Would requiring some kind of behavior test be considered too much
certification?
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D. Keeler
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 8:13 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
Tami, I think the formost issue with me is does the dog behave when asked
and does the handler know how to handle the dog! Grooming and general health
is also important because iether the dog may be bringing its own pets with
it or sometimes, Not always, it can reflect badly on the handler. A handler
may be slipping in maintaining the dogs appearance due to lack of money,
time or just lack of interest. I know that many folks will disaggree with me
but I also think that an ID, tradmark harness or for owner trained teams
some kind of state issued sticker be obtained so that a service dog can be
distinguished from any other dog. A perfect example is my dughters friend.
She has a jack Russell terrier named Trouble! She is a owner trained hearing
dog. The dog is cute and well behaved but, I can forsee many folks confusing
her with a pet. For me, I wonder wher the line between being private about
why you need a dog and what that dog does for you conflicts with the general
publics seeming need to declare there dogs as service dogs! At some point,
there has to be a clear line instead of the big grey void folks seem to have
now. I met a woman at the train station last year on the way to convention.
William and I were taking the train and I sure hope she wasn't! At least she
wasn't in our car! Anyway, she had a little terier, and the thing barked,
growled and tried to come at our dogs! She had to walk down the tracks quite
away down the tracks and her dog was still going off! Interestingly, she
claimed it was for PTSD. That thing would have caused it instead of
relieving it! I really didn't know how to handle the situation other than
william and I controlling our dogs while hers cut loose! I mean, who or how
do you report a situation where the dog is clearly in dubious territory
iether because of its or the handlers lack of controlling behavior? At least
with guide dogs you can call a school or talk to a friend and check to see
if the behavior is normal for a service dog! And, I can tell good owner
trainers because they keep there dogs under control. I wonder what or how
penalties can be assessed to folks who are not being truthful about the
service or lack of services that the dog performs. As long as there is no
requirment that can't be faked or we are not required to have some proof
that the dog does the service. we'll always have folks sneaking nonservice
animals under the wire!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tami Jarvis" <tami at poodlemutt.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 10:39 PM
Subject: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
> Okay, following up on Ken's suggestion, I opened my mouth and now have
> a writing project. I blame Ken! /grin/
>
> Seriously, I do think it might be nice to have some semi-formalized
> collection of those rules of etiquette that most of us here just take
> for granted and that we work so diligently to follow. The
"responsibilities"
> part of our rights and responsibilities. Most of those I have learned
> from a lot of you, whether it's what you learned from your schools or
> the experience of years of real world guide dog use. So this seemed a
> good place to ask again! /smile/
>
> What do we -- with "we" being responsible, considerate service dog
> users -- consider important when we take our dogs into public? What is
> good etiquette in our dogs? What is good etiquette for us humans?
>
> I'm thinking of a couple of categories for the dogs:
>
> 1) Grooming and health
> 2) public behavior
>
> For the humans... I haven't figured out neat categories for that yet.
> I'm thinking of good dog management -- keep the dog out of the aisle,
> stuff like that. Maybe a bit about how to manage lines and so forth.
>
> I think I'll include a "what to do when..." As we have seen from the
> convention debriefing... Not everybody knows that it's bad form to
> walk off and leave the smelling mess for someone to step in. Ugh! And
> what about those times your perfectly well trained dog goes klepto in
> the supermarket? I say pay for it; others say, "oh, well." I've only
> had to buy an unintended stuffed animal, if anyone is wondering. /lol/
>
> I have a few items I might address for interactions with other service
> dog users... Hm...
>
> Anyway, if anyone has suggestions they would like to see included, you
> can write me off list at tami at poodlemutt.com. It might also be fun to
> discuss some of these things on the list. I'm thinking of the recent
> discussion about riding in cabs. We all have different ways of doing
> the same thing and smoothing over the rough spots we encounter in a
crowded busy world.
>
> Tami
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/lkeeler%40comcast.n
> et
_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.co
m
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 22:11:41 -0700
From: Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
Message-ID: <520F060D.60404 at poodlemutt.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Well, if there were a way for that to be administered that would
actually work, it could be worth consideration, at least. There is the
question of how that is paid for and by whom, to begin with. Where would
the testing take place? And so on.
Also, to what extent would the test guarantee that the dogs continue to
be well-behaved and that the handlers continue to maintain that part of
the training and so on.
Also, how is that certification then used? Do we have to show it
everywhere we go? Is that a good idea? Can we produce a proof of this
certification that cannot be forged?
I've seen some proposed sample tests that seem sensible and reasonable,
with fairly specific requirements for the testing. However, there is
still the problem of administration and financing on a large scale. So I
have never come up with an idea of how to even start there. Maybe
someone else has?
On 08/16/2013 08:27 PM, Nicole Torcolini wrote:
> Would requiring some kind of behavior test be considered too much
> certification?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D. Keeler
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 8:13 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
>
> Tami, I think the formost issue with me is does the dog behave when asked
> and does the handler know how to handle the dog! Grooming and general health
> is also important because iether the dog may be bringing its own pets with
> it or sometimes, Not always, it can reflect badly on the handler. A handler
> may be slipping in maintaining the dogs appearance due to lack of money,
> time or just lack of interest. I know that many folks will disaggree with me
> but I also think that an ID, tradmark harness or for owner trained teams
> some kind of state issued sticker be obtained so that a service dog can be
> distinguished from any other dog. A perfect example is my dughters friend.
> She has a jack Russell terrier named Trouble! She is a owner trained hearing
> dog. The dog is cute and well behaved but, I can forsee many folks confusing
> her with a pet. For me, I wonder wher the line between being private about
> why you need a dog and what that dog does for you conflicts with the general
> publics seeming need to declare there dogs as service dogs! At some point,
> there has to be a clear line instead of the big grey void folks seem to have
> now. I met a woman at the train station last year on the way to convention.
> William and I were taking the train and I sure hope she wasn't! At least she
> wasn't in our car! Anyway, she had a little terier, and the thing barked,
> growled and tried to come at our dogs! She had to walk down the tracks quite
> away down the tracks and her dog was still going off! Interestingly, she
> claimed it was for PTSD. That thing would have caused it instead of
> relieving it! I really didn't know how to handle the situation other than
> william and I controlling our dogs while hers cut loose! I mean, who or how
> do you report a situation where the dog is clearly in dubious territory
> iether because of its or the handlers lack of controlling behavior? At least
> with guide dogs you can call a school or talk to a friend and check to see
> if the behavior is normal for a service dog! And, I can tell good owner
> trainers because they keep there dogs under control. I wonder what or how
> penalties can be assessed to folks who are not being truthful about the
> service or lack of services that the dog performs. As long as there is no
> requirment that can't be faked or we are not required to have some proof
> that the dog does the service. we'll always have folks sneaking nonservice
> animals under the wire!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tami Jarvis" <tami at poodlemutt.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 10:39 PM
> Subject: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
>
>
>> Okay, following up on Ken's suggestion, I opened my mouth and now have
>> a writing project. I blame Ken! /grin/
>>
>> Seriously, I do think it might be nice to have some semi-formalized
>> collection of those rules of etiquette that most of us here just take
>> for granted and that we work so diligently to follow. The
> "responsibilities"
>> part of our rights and responsibilities. Most of those I have learned
>> from a lot of you, whether it's what you learned from your schools or
>> the experience of years of real world guide dog use. So this seemed a
>> good place to ask again! /smile/
>>
>> What do we -- with "we" being responsible, considerate service dog
>> users -- consider important when we take our dogs into public? What is
>> good etiquette in our dogs? What is good etiquette for us humans?
>>
>> I'm thinking of a couple of categories for the dogs:
>>
>> 1) Grooming and health
>> 2) public behavior
>>
>> For the humans... I haven't figured out neat categories for that yet.
>> I'm thinking of good dog management -- keep the dog out of the aisle,
>> stuff like that. Maybe a bit about how to manage lines and so forth.
>>
>> I think I'll include a "what to do when..." As we have seen from the
>> convention debriefing... Not everybody knows that it's bad form to
>> walk off and leave the smelling mess for someone to step in. Ugh! And
>> what about those times your perfectly well trained dog goes klepto in
>> the supermarket? I say pay for it; others say, "oh, well." I've only
>> had to buy an unintended stuffed animal, if anyone is wondering. /lol/
>>
>> I have a few items I might address for interactions with other service
>> dog users... Hm...
>>
>> Anyway, if anyone has suggestions they would like to see included, you
>> can write me off list at tami at poodlemutt.com. It might also be fun to
>> discuss some of these things on the list. I'm thinking of the recent
>> discussion about riding in cabs. We all have different ways of doing
>> the same thing and smoothing over the rough spots we encounter in a
> crowded busy world.
>>
>> Tami
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/lkeeler%40comcast.n
>> et
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.co
> m
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tami%40poodlemutt.com
>
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 22:20:10 -0700
From: "Nicole Torcolini" <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
Message-ID: <E5D9CC43F1E04940AD2299A1E1B0755D at NicoleDell>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Maybe it could be required on a yearly basis or two years or something? Or,
maybe as an alternative, if a business owner thinks that a dog that is being
called a service dog is misbehaving too much, then the business owner could
report the dog to someone (not sure who) and the dog could then go through
the test. This might be better than requiring everyone to do the test.
However, having the test on some sort of regular schedule might not be a bad
idea, even for organization trained dogs as I know that it is possible for a
dog's behavior to get out of hand once he/she is placed with a handler.
Sometimes, it is something that the handler is doing and sometimes it is
not.
Something else that might helpful, but that could also be misused, is some
sort of description of what sort of dogs usually do certain services. For
example, most guide dogs wear harnesses and need to be large enough to
effectively guide their handlers. Also, maybe there are certain breeds that
are more questionable as service dogs than others because they are more high
strung or for whatever other reason.
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 10:12 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
Well, if there were a way for that to be administered that would actually
work, it could be worth consideration, at least. There is the question of
how that is paid for and by whom, to begin with. Where would the testing
take place? And so on.
Also, to what extent would the test guarantee that the dogs continue to be
well-behaved and that the handlers continue to maintain that part of the
training and so on.
Also, how is that certification then used? Do we have to show it everywhere
we go? Is that a good idea? Can we produce a proof of this certification
that cannot be forged?
I've seen some proposed sample tests that seem sensible and reasonable, with
fairly specific requirements for the testing. However, there is still the
problem of administration and financing on a large scale. So I have never
come up with an idea of how to even start there. Maybe someone else has?
On 08/16/2013 08:27 PM, Nicole Torcolini wrote:
> Would requiring some kind of behavior test be considered too much
> certification?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D.
> Keeler
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 8:13 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
>
> Tami, I think the formost issue with me is does the dog behave when
> asked and does the handler know how to handle the dog! Grooming and
> general health is also important because iether the dog may be
> bringing its own pets with it or sometimes, Not always, it can reflect
> badly on the handler. A handler may be slipping in maintaining the
> dogs appearance due to lack of money, time or just lack of interest. I
> know that many folks will disaggree with me but I also think that an
> ID, tradmark harness or for owner trained teams some kind of state
> issued sticker be obtained so that a service dog can be distinguished from
any other dog. A perfect example is my dughters friend.
> She has a jack Russell terrier named Trouble! She is a owner trained
> hearing dog. The dog is cute and well behaved but, I can forsee many
> folks confusing her with a pet. For me, I wonder wher the line between
> being private about why you need a dog and what that dog does for you
> conflicts with the general publics seeming need to declare there dogs
> as service dogs! At some point, there has to be a clear line instead
> of the big grey void folks seem to have now. I met a woman at the train
station last year on the way to convention.
> William and I were taking the train and I sure hope she wasn't! At
> least she wasn't in our car! Anyway, she had a little terier, and the
> thing barked, growled and tried to come at our dogs! She had to walk
> down the tracks quite away down the tracks and her dog was still going
> off! Interestingly, she claimed it was for PTSD. That thing would have
> caused it instead of relieving it! I really didn't know how to handle
> the situation other than william and I controlling our dogs while hers
> cut loose! I mean, who or how do you report a situation where the dog
> is clearly in dubious territory iether because of its or the handlers
> lack of controlling behavior? At least with guide dogs you can call a
> school or talk to a friend and check to see if the behavior is normal
> for a service dog! And, I can tell good owner trainers because they
> keep there dogs under control. I wonder what or how penalties can be
> assessed to folks who are not being truthful about the service or lack
> of services that the dog performs. As long as there is no requirment
> that can't be faked or we are not required to have some proof that the
> dog does the service. we'll always have folks sneaking nonservice animals
under the wire!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tami Jarvis" <tami at poodlemutt.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 10:39 PM
> Subject: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
>
>
>> Okay, following up on Ken's suggestion, I opened my mouth and now
>> have a writing project. I blame Ken! /grin/
>>
>> Seriously, I do think it might be nice to have some semi-formalized
>> collection of those rules of etiquette that most of us here just take
>> for granted and that we work so diligently to follow. The
> "responsibilities"
>> part of our rights and responsibilities. Most of those I have learned
>> from a lot of you, whether it's what you learned from your schools or
>> the experience of years of real world guide dog use. So this seemed a
>> good place to ask again! /smile/
>>
>> What do we -- with "we" being responsible, considerate service dog
>> users -- consider important when we take our dogs into public? What
>> is good etiquette in our dogs? What is good etiquette for us humans?
>>
>> I'm thinking of a couple of categories for the dogs:
>>
>> 1) Grooming and health
>> 2) public behavior
>>
>> For the humans... I haven't figured out neat categories for that yet.
>> I'm thinking of good dog management -- keep the dog out of the aisle,
>> stuff like that. Maybe a bit about how to manage lines and so forth.
>>
>> I think I'll include a "what to do when..." As we have seen from the
>> convention debriefing... Not everybody knows that it's bad form to
>> walk off and leave the smelling mess for someone to step in. Ugh! And
>> what about those times your perfectly well trained dog goes klepto in
>> the supermarket? I say pay for it; others say, "oh, well." I've only
>> had to buy an unintended stuffed animal, if anyone is wondering.
>> /lol/
>>
>> I have a few items I might address for interactions with other
>> service dog users... Hm...
>>
>> Anyway, if anyone has suggestions they would like to see included,
>> you can write me off list at tami at poodlemutt.com. It might also be
>> fun to discuss some of these things on the list. I'm thinking of the
>> recent discussion about riding in cabs. We all have different ways of
>> doing the same thing and smoothing over the rough spots we encounter
>> in a
> crowded busy world.
>>
>> Tami
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/lkeeler%40comcast.
>> n
>> et
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nagdu:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40waveca
> ble.co
> m
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nagdu:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tami%40poodlemutt.c
> om
>
_______________________________________________
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nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
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m
------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2013 01:37:15 -0400
From: "Larry D. Keeler" <lkeeler at comcast.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
Message-ID: <FA8B65E94B6D44BD97634292AF78115C at yourec0540d030>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=response
Of course, it wouldn't be fool proof! I'm sure some teams might pass tests
and such and then fall apart. This issue is kind of a difficult one.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tami Jarvis" <tami at poodlemutt.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2013 1:11 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
> Well, if there were a way for that to be administered that would actually
> work, it could be worth consideration, at least. There is the question of
> how that is paid for and by whom, to begin with. Where would the testing
> take place? And so on.
>
> Also, to what extent would the test guarantee that the dogs continue to be
> well-behaved and that the handlers continue to maintain that part of the
> training and so on.
>
> Also, how is that certification then used? Do we have to show it
> everywhere we go? Is that a good idea? Can we produce a proof of this
> certification that cannot be forged?
>
> I've seen some proposed sample tests that seem sensible and reasonable,
> with fairly specific requirements for the testing. However, there is still
> the problem of administration and financing on a large scale. So I have
> never come up with an idea of how to even start there. Maybe someone else
> has?
>
> On 08/16/2013 08:27 PM, Nicole Torcolini wrote:
>> Would requiring some kind of behavior test be considered too much
>> certification?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D.
>> Keeler
>> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 8:13 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
>>
>> Tami, I think the formost issue with me is does the dog behave when asked
>> and does the handler know how to handle the dog! Grooming and general
>> health
>> is also important because iether the dog may be bringing its own pets
>> with
>> it or sometimes, Not always, it can reflect badly on the handler. A
>> handler
>> may be slipping in maintaining the dogs appearance due to lack of money,
>> time or just lack of interest. I know that many folks will disaggree with
>> me
>> but I also think that an ID, tradmark harness or for owner trained teams
>> some kind of state issued sticker be obtained so that a service dog can
>> be
>> distinguished from any other dog. A perfect example is my dughters
>> friend.
>> She has a jack Russell terrier named Trouble! She is a owner trained
>> hearing
>> dog. The dog is cute and well behaved but, I can forsee many folks
>> confusing
>> her with a pet. For me, I wonder wher the line between being private
>> about
>> why you need a dog and what that dog does for you conflicts with the
>> general
>> publics seeming need to declare there dogs as service dogs! At some
>> point,
>> there has to be a clear line instead of the big grey void folks seem to
>> have
>> now. I met a woman at the train station last year on the way to
>> convention.
>> William and I were taking the train and I sure hope she wasn't! At least
>> she
>> wasn't in our car! Anyway, she had a little terier, and the thing barked,
>> growled and tried to come at our dogs! She had to walk down the tracks
>> quite
>> away down the tracks and her dog was still going off! Interestingly, she
>> claimed it was for PTSD. That thing would have caused it instead of
>> relieving it! I really didn't know how to handle the situation other than
>> william and I controlling our dogs while hers cut loose! I mean, who or
>> how
>> do you report a situation where the dog is clearly in dubious territory
>> iether because of its or the handlers lack of controlling behavior? At
>> least
>> with guide dogs you can call a school or talk to a friend and check to
>> see
>> if the behavior is normal for a service dog! And, I can tell good owner
>> trainers because they keep there dogs under control. I wonder what or how
>> penalties can be assessed to folks who are not being truthful about the
>> service or lack of services that the dog performs. As long as there is no
>> requirment that can't be faked or we are not required to have some proof
>> that the dog does the service. we'll always have folks sneaking
>> nonservice
>> animals under the wire!
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Tami Jarvis" <tami at poodlemutt.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 10:39 PM
>> Subject: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
>>
>>
>>> Okay, following up on Ken's suggestion, I opened my mouth and now have
>>> a writing project. I blame Ken! /grin/
>>>
>>> Seriously, I do think it might be nice to have some semi-formalized
>>> collection of those rules of etiquette that most of us here just take
>>> for granted and that we work so diligently to follow. The
>> "responsibilities"
>>> part of our rights and responsibilities. Most of those I have learned
>>> from a lot of you, whether it's what you learned from your schools or
>>> the experience of years of real world guide dog use. So this seemed a
>>> good place to ask again! /smile/
>>>
>>> What do we -- with "we" being responsible, considerate service dog
>>> users -- consider important when we take our dogs into public? What is
>>> good etiquette in our dogs? What is good etiquette for us humans?
>>>
>>> I'm thinking of a couple of categories for the dogs:
>>>
>>> 1) Grooming and health
>>> 2) public behavior
>>>
>>> For the humans... I haven't figured out neat categories for that yet.
>>> I'm thinking of good dog management -- keep the dog out of the aisle,
>>> stuff like that. Maybe a bit about how to manage lines and so forth.
>>>
>>> I think I'll include a "what to do when..." As we have seen from the
>>> convention debriefing... Not everybody knows that it's bad form to
>>> walk off and leave the smelling mess for someone to step in. Ugh! And
>>> what about those times your perfectly well trained dog goes klepto in
>>> the supermarket? I say pay for it; others say, "oh, well." I've only
>>> had to buy an unintended stuffed animal, if anyone is wondering. /lol/
>>>
>>> I have a few items I might address for interactions with other service
>>> dog users... Hm...
>>>
>>> Anyway, if anyone has suggestions they would like to see included, you
>>> can write me off list at tami at poodlemutt.com. It might also be fun to
>>> discuss some of these things on the list. I'm thinking of the recent
>>> discussion about riding in cabs. We all have different ways of doing
>>> the same thing and smoothing over the rough spots we encounter in a
>> crowded busy world.
>>>
>>> Tami
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nagdu:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/lkeeler%40comcast.n
>>> et
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.co
>> m
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tami%40poodlemutt.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
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------------------------------
Message: 18
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2013 01:39:32 -0400
From: "Larry D. Keeler" <lkeeler at comcast.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
Message-ID: <E56DD82475E846D5BE8D316288879D91 at yourec0540d030>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Nicole, one issue I see with that is it might not be the dog! It could be
that for some reason, the handler may not be able or unwilling to control
it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nicole Torcolini" <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2013 1:20 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
> Maybe it could be required on a yearly basis or two years or something?
> Or,
> maybe as an alternative, if a business owner thinks that a dog that is
> being
> called a service dog is misbehaving too much, then the business owner
> could
> report the dog to someone (not sure who) and the dog could then go through
> the test. This might be better than requiring everyone to do the test.
> However, having the test on some sort of regular schedule might not be a
> bad
> idea, even for organization trained dogs as I know that it is possible for
> a
> dog's behavior to get out of hand once he/she is placed with a handler.
> Sometimes, it is something that the handler is doing and sometimes it is
> not.
> Something else that might helpful, but that could also be misused, is some
> sort of description of what sort of dogs usually do certain services. For
> example, most guide dogs wear harnesses and need to be large enough to
> effectively guide their handlers. Also, maybe there are certain breeds
> that
> are more questionable as service dogs than others because they are more
> high
> strung or for whatever other reason.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 10:12 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
>
> Well, if there were a way for that to be administered that would actually
> work, it could be worth consideration, at least. There is the question of
> how that is paid for and by whom, to begin with. Where would the testing
> take place? And so on.
>
> Also, to what extent would the test guarantee that the dogs continue to be
> well-behaved and that the handlers continue to maintain that part of the
> training and so on.
>
> Also, how is that certification then used? Do we have to show it
> everywhere
> we go? Is that a good idea? Can we produce a proof of this certification
> that cannot be forged?
>
> I've seen some proposed sample tests that seem sensible and reasonable,
> with
> fairly specific requirements for the testing. However, there is still the
> problem of administration and financing on a large scale. So I have never
> come up with an idea of how to even start there. Maybe someone else has?
>
> On 08/16/2013 08:27 PM, Nicole Torcolini wrote:
>> Would requiring some kind of behavior test be considered too much
>> certification?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D.
>> Keeler
>> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 8:13 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
>>
>> Tami, I think the formost issue with me is does the dog behave when
>> asked and does the handler know how to handle the dog! Grooming and
>> general health is also important because iether the dog may be
>> bringing its own pets with it or sometimes, Not always, it can reflect
>> badly on the handler. A handler may be slipping in maintaining the
>> dogs appearance due to lack of money, time or just lack of interest. I
>> know that many folks will disaggree with me but I also think that an
>> ID, tradmark harness or for owner trained teams some kind of state
>> issued sticker be obtained so that a service dog can be distinguished
>> from
> any other dog. A perfect example is my dughters friend.
>> She has a jack Russell terrier named Trouble! She is a owner trained
>> hearing dog. The dog is cute and well behaved but, I can forsee many
>> folks confusing her with a pet. For me, I wonder wher the line between
>> being private about why you need a dog and what that dog does for you
>> conflicts with the general publics seeming need to declare there dogs
>> as service dogs! At some point, there has to be a clear line instead
>> of the big grey void folks seem to have now. I met a woman at the train
> station last year on the way to convention.
>> William and I were taking the train and I sure hope she wasn't! At
>> least she wasn't in our car! Anyway, she had a little terier, and the
>> thing barked, growled and tried to come at our dogs! She had to walk
>> down the tracks quite away down the tracks and her dog was still going
>> off! Interestingly, she claimed it was for PTSD. That thing would have
>> caused it instead of relieving it! I really didn't know how to handle
>> the situation other than william and I controlling our dogs while hers
>> cut loose! I mean, who or how do you report a situation where the dog
>> is clearly in dubious territory iether because of its or the handlers
>> lack of controlling behavior? At least with guide dogs you can call a
>> school or talk to a friend and check to see if the behavior is normal
>> for a service dog! And, I can tell good owner trainers because they
>> keep there dogs under control. I wonder what or how penalties can be
>> assessed to folks who are not being truthful about the service or lack
>> of services that the dog performs. As long as there is no requirment
>> that can't be faked or we are not required to have some proof that the
>> dog does the service. we'll always have folks sneaking nonservice animals
> under the wire!
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Tami Jarvis" <tami at poodlemutt.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 10:39 PM
>> Subject: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
>>
>>
>>> Okay, following up on Ken's suggestion, I opened my mouth and now
>>> have a writing project. I blame Ken! /grin/
>>>
>>> Seriously, I do think it might be nice to have some semi-formalized
>>> collection of those rules of etiquette that most of us here just take
>>> for granted and that we work so diligently to follow. The
>> "responsibilities"
>>> part of our rights and responsibilities. Most of those I have learned
>>> from a lot of you, whether it's what you learned from your schools or
>>> the experience of years of real world guide dog use. So this seemed a
>>> good place to ask again! /smile/
>>>
>>> What do we -- with "we" being responsible, considerate service dog
>>> users -- consider important when we take our dogs into public? What
>>> is good etiquette in our dogs? What is good etiquette for us humans?
>>>
>>> I'm thinking of a couple of categories for the dogs:
>>>
>>> 1) Grooming and health
>>> 2) public behavior
>>>
>>> For the humans... I haven't figured out neat categories for that yet.
>>> I'm thinking of good dog management -- keep the dog out of the aisle,
>>> stuff like that. Maybe a bit about how to manage lines and so forth.
>>>
>>> I think I'll include a "what to do when..." As we have seen from the
>>> convention debriefing... Not everybody knows that it's bad form to
>>> walk off and leave the smelling mess for someone to step in. Ugh! And
>>> what about those times your perfectly well trained dog goes klepto in
>>> the supermarket? I say pay for it; others say, "oh, well." I've only
>>> had to buy an unintended stuffed animal, if anyone is wondering.
>>> /lol/
>>>
>>> I have a few items I might address for interactions with other
>>> service dog users... Hm...
>>>
>>> Anyway, if anyone has suggestions they would like to see included,
>>> you can write me off list at tami at poodlemutt.com. It might also be
>>> fun to discuss some of these things on the list. I'm thinking of the
>>> recent discussion about riding in cabs. We all have different ways of
>>> doing the same thing and smoothing over the rough spots we encounter
>>> in a
>> crowded busy world.
>>>
>>> Tami
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nagdu:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/lkeeler%40comcast.
>>> n
>>> et
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40waveca
>> ble.co
>> m
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tami%40poodlemutt.c
>> om
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.co
> m
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
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------------------------------
Message: 19
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 22:59:24 -0700
From: "Nicole Torcolini" <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
Message-ID: <6A712F4A045849F19119CBC4B33F2630 at NicoleDell>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sorry, but to which part of my message were you referring ?
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D. Keeler
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 10:40 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
Nicole, one issue I see with that is it might not be the dog! It could be
that for some reason, the handler may not be able or unwilling to control
it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nicole Torcolini" <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2013 1:20 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
> Maybe it could be required on a yearly basis or two years or something?
> Or,
> maybe as an alternative, if a business owner thinks that a dog that is
> being called a service dog is misbehaving too much, then the business
> owner could report the dog to someone (not sure who) and the dog could
> then go through the test. This might be better than requiring everyone
> to do the test.
> However, having the test on some sort of regular schedule might not be
> a bad idea, even for organization trained dogs as I know that it is
> possible for a dog's behavior to get out of hand once he/she is placed
> with a handler.
> Sometimes, it is something that the handler is doing and sometimes it
> is not.
> Something else that might helpful, but that could also be misused, is
> some sort of description of what sort of dogs usually do certain
> services. For example, most guide dogs wear harnesses and need to be
> large enough to effectively guide their handlers. Also, maybe there
> are certain breeds that are more questionable as service dogs than
> others because they are more high strung or for whatever other reason.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 10:12 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
>
> Well, if there were a way for that to be administered that would
> actually work, it could be worth consideration, at least. There is the
> question of how that is paid for and by whom, to begin with. Where
> would the testing take place? And so on.
>
> Also, to what extent would the test guarantee that the dogs continue
> to be well-behaved and that the handlers continue to maintain that
> part of the training and so on.
>
> Also, how is that certification then used? Do we have to show it
> everywhere we go? Is that a good idea? Can we produce a proof of this
> certification that cannot be forged?
>
> I've seen some proposed sample tests that seem sensible and
> reasonable, with fairly specific requirements for the testing.
> However, there is still the problem of administration and financing on
> a large scale. So I have never come up with an idea of how to even
> start there. Maybe someone else has?
>
> On 08/16/2013 08:27 PM, Nicole Torcolini wrote:
>> Would requiring some kind of behavior test be considered too much
>> certification?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D.
>> Keeler
>> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 8:13 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
>>
>> Tami, I think the formost issue with me is does the dog behave when
>> asked and does the handler know how to handle the dog! Grooming and
>> general health is also important because iether the dog may be
>> bringing its own pets with it or sometimes, Not always, it can
>> reflect badly on the handler. A handler may be slipping in
>> maintaining the dogs appearance due to lack of money, time or just
>> lack of interest. I know that many folks will disaggree with me but I
>> also think that an ID, tradmark harness or for owner trained teams
>> some kind of state issued sticker be obtained so that a service dog
>> can be distinguished from
> any other dog. A perfect example is my dughters friend.
>> She has a jack Russell terrier named Trouble! She is a owner trained
>> hearing dog. The dog is cute and well behaved but, I can forsee many
>> folks confusing her with a pet. For me, I wonder wher the line
>> between being private about why you need a dog and what that dog does
>> for you conflicts with the general publics seeming need to declare
>> there dogs as service dogs! At some point, there has to be a clear
>> line instead of the big grey void folks seem to have now. I met a
>> woman at the train
> station last year on the way to convention.
>> William and I were taking the train and I sure hope she wasn't! At
>> least she wasn't in our car! Anyway, she had a little terier, and the
>> thing barked, growled and tried to come at our dogs! She had to walk
>> down the tracks quite away down the tracks and her dog was still
>> going off! Interestingly, she claimed it was for PTSD. That thing
>> would have caused it instead of relieving it! I really didn't know
>> how to handle the situation other than william and I controlling our
>> dogs while hers cut loose! I mean, who or how do you report a
>> situation where the dog is clearly in dubious territory iether
>> because of its or the handlers lack of controlling behavior? At least
>> with guide dogs you can call a school or talk to a friend and check
>> to see if the behavior is normal for a service dog! And, I can tell
>> good owner trainers because they keep there dogs under control. I
>> wonder what or how penalties can be assessed to folks who are not
>> being truthful about the service or lack of services that the dog
>> performs. As long as there is no requirment that can't be faked or we
>> are not required to have some proof that the dog does the service.
>> we'll always have folks sneaking nonservice animals
> under the wire!
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Tami Jarvis" <tami at poodlemutt.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 10:39 PM
>> Subject: [nagdu] Suggestions needed!
>>
>>
>>> Okay, following up on Ken's suggestion, I opened my mouth and now
>>> have a writing project. I blame Ken! /grin/
>>>
>>> Seriously, I do think it might be nice to have some semi-formalized
>>> collection of those rules of etiquette that most of us here just
>>> take for granted and that we work so diligently to follow. The
>> "responsibilities"
>>> part of our rights and responsibilities. Most of those I have
>>> learned from a lot of you, whether it's what you learned from your
>>> schools or the experience of years of real world guide dog use. So
>>> this seemed a good place to ask again! /smile/
>>>
>>> What do we -- with "we" being responsible, considerate service dog
>>> users -- consider important when we take our dogs into public? What
>>> is good etiquette in our dogs? What is good etiquette for us humans?
>>>
>>> I'm thinking of a couple of categories for the dogs:
>>>
>>> 1) Grooming and health
>>> 2) public behavior
>>>
>>> For the humans... I haven't figured out neat categories for that yet.
>>> I'm thinking of good dog management -- keep the dog out of the
>>> aisle, stuff like that. Maybe a bit about how to manage lines and so
forth.
>>>
>>> I think I'll include a "what to do when..." As we have seen from the
>>> convention debriefing... Not everybody knows that it's bad form to
>>> walk off and leave the smelling mess for someone to step in. Ugh!
>>> And what about those times your perfectly well trained dog goes
>>> klepto in the supermarket? I say pay for it; others say, "oh, well."
>>> I've only had to buy an unintended stuffed animal, if anyone is
wondering.
>>> /lol/
>>>
>>> I have a few items I might address for interactions with other
>>> service dog users... Hm...
>>>
>>> Anyway, if anyone has suggestions they would like to see included,
>>> you can write me off list at tami at poodlemutt.com. It might also be
>>> fun to discuss some of these things on the list. I'm thinking of the
>>> recent discussion about riding in cabs. We all have different ways
>>> of doing the same thing and smoothing over the rough spots we
>>> encounter in a
>> crowded busy world.
>>>
>>> Tami
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for
>>> nagdu:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/lkeeler%40comcast.
>>> n
>>> et
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavec
>> a
>> ble.co
>> m
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tami%40poodlemutt.
>> c
>> om
>>
>
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
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> ble.co
> m
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
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> et
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