[nagdu] identification of service animals

Mon Aug 19 14:02:00 UTC 2013

Ken,
	If we were to only consider guide dog, I would venture to guess
there are far fewer owner trained guide dogs than program trained dogs;
however, there seems to be a larger percentage at our meetings than is
represented by the whole. If we were to consider the service dog user
population as a whole, though, I believe the percentages would be much
higher. We need to realize that our advocacy on behalf of service dog users
also affect those who use dogs for other services than guiding. 

Fraternally yours,
Marion

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Ace
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 9:25 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] identification of service animals

Marion,
Apparently I am under the wrong impression of the ratio of Owner-trained
dogs to school trained. In addition it appears my approach is seriously off
the track so I will withdraw my comments and settle down on the sideline and
listen a little closer to the direction we are trying to go.
Thanks,
K&A

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of National
Association of Guide Dog Users
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 8:57 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] identification of service animals

Ken,
	The "easy way out" would depend upon for whom it was "easy"! Those
of us with program-trained dogs have it "easy", as the programs issue the
documentation. How easy would it be for owner trainers to secure the
identification. And does not such identification promulgate the very problem
we are seeking to resolve? 

Fraternally yours,
Marion

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Ace
Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 9:45 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] identification of service animals

I disagree, but I appreciate your view. I am looking for the easiest way of
verification and the most verifiable. "Flip the Lip" and you know, "Three
Barks" your out, the kiss principle. But that is just my opinion. To each
his/her own.
K&A

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Hingson
Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 9:41 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: [nagdu] identification of service animals

Folks,

Please keep in mind that it is we who have the right to take our guides with
us.  It is not the dog that needs to be proven to be a service animal.
Instead the two questions allowed under the ADA are designed to determine if
we are eligible to be accompanied by a service animal.

I am not in favor of any individual being required to carry any extra
identification.  The ADA questions address the issue.    If any law is to be
changed or added to the books said law should create strict penalties for
persons who impersonate a person with a disability.  The burden should
reside totally on the individual who misrepresents himself or herself
improperly. 

Best,

Michael Hingson

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nicole Torcolini
Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 06:22 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Are we in search of a solution without a problem?

Ken,

	If you go read through the list archives, you will see that this
subject of some kind of certification has been discussed at length  at least
a few times, and the general consensus was that such would be problematic
for several reasons, including, but not limited to, owner trainers. No, I am
not an owner trainer, but there are several on this list. Please explain how
exactly a successful program would be tied to an owner trained guide dog?

Nicole

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Ace
Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 5:33 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Are we in search of a solution without a problem?

I would ask that you think about this before you respond.
We all seem to want to solve the problem of identifying service animals
/guide dogs.
ID's can be used for any number of animals. It seems apparent that a
successful program has to be tied to the trained animal.
That leaves us with three options as I see it: Tattooing, Microchips or ear
tags like they do with cattle. Of the three I think tattooing on the inner
lip would seem to be the least objectionable.
Enter a restaurant / business, expose the tattoo and problem solved. I am
open for alternatives.
K&A

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of National
Association of Guide Dog Users
Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 8:06 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Are we in search of a solution without a problem?

Larry,
	In your message, you state "I think we have a problem without a
solution." I believe we do have a few solutions! One solution is to carry
our brochure with us wherever we go and give them to people. In our
brochure, it clearly states, "Business may exclude a service dog only if it
causes a direct threat to the health or safety of others or if it is out of
control and the handler does not take immediate action to correct the
behavior." I have attached a PDF of this brochure you can print out or you
can order them from the Independence Market at (410) 659-9314. Another thing
that we can all do is to speak to the manager, identify our selves as a
member of the National Association of Guide dog Users, and let them know
they have the right to deny access to those whose dogs are out of control
and give them specific examples of what constitutes "out of control". In
addition, you can reer them to our hotline for more information. As members
of the largetst organization of the blind in the United States and of its
specialty division that represents guide dog users, I believe it is our
responsibility to educate the public about not only our rights and
responsibilities but theirs, as well!

Fraternally yours,
Marion

 rights   

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D. Keeler
Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 10:18 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Are we in search of a solution without a problem?

Aaron, I have seen buisness owners and workers in public service who most
deffinetely form oppinions about previous encounters with service dogs or
even fake service dogs. If they have had a well behaved dog come in before
we get to there place, they often have strong oppinions as to how are dogs
should be behaving! Not fair but true! Also, the reverse is true. I
constantly am compared with other dog handlers wherever I go. I have a
labradoodle and she is often accused of not being a service dog even when
she is working! Not because she isn't working well but because most folks
don't believe that a dog who looks like that, can't be a service dog! I feel
that we have a probblem with out a solution! Mainly because many of the dogs
I've seen who ar questionable often are not behaving in a way that would be
tolerated from our dogs. If a dog is being claimed to be performing a
service and is behaving pretty well. I wound not have much of an issue.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron Cannon" <cannona at fireantproductions.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 8:45 AM
Subject: [nagdu] Are we in search of a solution without a problem?

Hi all.

The recent petition from CCI that was forwarded to this list made some
assertions:

"When untrained pet dogs are somewhere they shouldn't be, it can create all
kinds of problems that make business owners think twice before allowing the
same access to legitimate service dogs and the people who need them.

"This outrageous and potentially dangerous fraud only adds to the
discrimination often faced by people with disabilities who actually need
assistance dogs.

"Legitimate service dogs require years of expert training to perform
specific commands like picking up dropped items and opening doors that
benefit people with disabilities - many of them U.S. veterans who are
injured while fighting for this country. These dogs provide calm, reliable
assistance to their human partners and help them live more independently.

"Now is the time to crack down on service dog fraud and end the online sale
of fake service dog certification products. Please don't allow the benefits
of a service dog to be taken away from people who need them."

First, has anyone actually seen some evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, that
this is as big a problem as they claim it is?  Has anyone been denied access
because someone else used a fake ID card?  Honestly curious, as I have no
information either way.

Second, (and now I am being a bit sarcastic) did anyone's dog receive a few
years of expert training?  Did it concern you that your dog took over 6
times longer to train than the average?  What sorts of amazing things can
your dog do with all that expert training?

Third, does anyone else get a bit suspicious when people or organizations
start appealing to "think of the children" or "think of the service men and
women" arguments to make their case?

Fourth, has anyone seen anything that might indicate that the benefits of
service dogs are in danger of being taken away from "those who need them"?

There are other issues with this petition which I'll address in another
email, but in short, I'd think carefully before signing.

Aaron

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m

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