[nagdu] Owner trainers
Darla Rogers
djrogers0628 at gmail.com
Sun Aug 25 21:37:08 UTC 2013
Dear Tami,
if this topic wasn't so serious, I'd be laughing, but you make some
wonderful points here about "our" rights; the dogs don't have any under
service dog legislation or the ADA or the DOJ whose definition, for some
unfathomable reason, is broader.
However, I am very, very disturbed service dog schools are not
educating their graduates correctly; I have never been told my I.D. was good
for anything except if I wanted to use it to educate more than any legal
implications of carrying one, so I don't show it, and I'm not in favor of
more government regulations.
Now, what I would favor is if a fraud is caught, to the best way
possible, they should have to live the disability they purport to have.
<grin>
Darla & hardworking Huck
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 10:59 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Owner trainers
Bridget,
Those are questions I and other owner-trainers get asked a lot. How do you
get your dog certified? How do you get an ID? Don't you need a program to
help you? Here are the short answers:
1) There is no such thing as certification, not in the legal sense. So there
is no need for me to have it.
2) There is no such thing as "real" service dog ID. It is illegal for anyone
to ask me for ID, in fact. So there is no need for ID.
3) The help I need from training programs such as those you mentioned is for
them to please stop telling everyone that *their* dogs can go into places of
public access because they are certified. I don't know if all of the
programs do it, but a lot of them do. I hear too many of their grads saying
how their school told them to just present their ID and tell people this is
what makes it legal for them to come in the door.
Sigh. I want those programs that do that to help me out by changing their
education about public access to reflect the truth of the law.
So an OT has to learn the laws and how they all work so that they can
effectively self-advocate about their right to public access. That is all.
OTs would have to do less work on that end if there were not so much
constant un-educating going on that they have to clear up.
One way for an OT to save themselves a lot of time and hassle is, of course,
to just buy an ID off the internet, and maybe a patch to let everyone know
its a service dog.
This is not fraud!!! I am a person with a disability, my dog is task
trained, it is not fraud for me to identify my dog as a service dog. The
identifiers have nothing to do with my right to public access, they are just
a convenient way to let folks know it really is a service dog...
Except that it doesn't in reality let anybody know anything, so why bother.
I chose not to buy or just Photoshop up an ID to save myself hassles while
my civil rights were being violated. I also elected not to get a vest like
the ones the training program uses in my area that I was always being told
was a requirement for legal public access. I did not get patches, harness
signs or anything else to alleviate the constant mugging of my dog, because
they don't seem to work that well.
Also, I don't want to educate the general public about how to commit fraud
by passing their dogs off as service dogs while I'm also educating
businesses how to commit federal crimes by violating my civil rights. So no
ID card for me! I'll waste my money on other things. /lol/
I have a confession. I think it's kinda funny that people who want to pass
off their pets waste all the money to get a bunch of fancy patches and
laminated cards when they don't need any of it. If they're going to lie like
that, they can do it for free when they answer the 2 questions.
When folks ask me about lying in answer to the questions, I'm starting to
stress the part where the handler must be disabled and asking if they really
want to say that just to bring their dog in the store. I'm kinda evil that
way.
It's also beginning to occur to me that all of these articles and hoopla and
petitions are, in fact, re-educating the public. Now they, too, know that
they don't have to spend any money to fraudulently pass of their dogs as
service dogs. This is going to save me money in hair cuts because I will
have pulled it all out for real any day now! /lol/
Tami
Tami
On 08/19/2013 08:16 PM, Bridget Walker wrote:
> Hi All,
> I'm with Ken on this one.I could never own/train my dog. It is just one of
those things I leave up to a training program.I'm not saying it can't be
done because I would have some true paradigm paralysis. With that I must
ask about the certification evaluation. Who evaluates and determines if the
dog becomes a service dog? How does one obtain the equipment and
identification? I know you can go on line and buy a harness but, not saying
owner trainers are doing this in any way but what about frauds. How do the
owner trainers identify them selfs?
> I. Know there is a lot of talk especially in New York City about fake
service dogs. How do the owner trainers get around the confusion without the
help of a training program name. GEB GDF This is just my own curiosity
because I really don't know and would like to be better informed.
> Bridget and Paulson
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 19, 2013, at 6:22 PM, "Ken Ace" <ken at acenovels.com> wrote:
>
>> Self training is NOT something my temperament would support.
>> Fortunately for my dog I recognize that and leave it to the
>> professionals. It makes for a much more plesant world.
>> K&A
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami
>> Jarvis
>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 6:17 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Owner trainers
>>
>> Minh, Sherrie, Julie, everyone else..
>>
>> The steps Julie listed for the OT (owner-trainer) process match what
>> I tend to think of based on what I've learned from others and my own
experience.
>>
>> I tend to list self-analysis as Step One. Some questions you might
>> ask yourself would have to do with whether you can follow through on
>> an intensive, all-consuming project for anywhere from 6 months to 2
years.
>> This would include looking at a projection of how stable you can
>> expect your life to be, how your resources are, etc. I know a few
>> people who I think would probably do very well at owner-training who
>> have decided at some point in this process that it is probably not
>> for them for reasons that make perfect sense. They don't want to
>> tackle the dangers of traffic training, for instance, so would rather
>> have a professional do that. Or they simply don't have time or budget
>> or energy or certainty that they could maintain any or all of the
>> above for the duration of the training process. Others, obviously,
>> decide to go ahead and start hunting for the right pup. Two things
>> you will absolutely need, from what I have learned of other
>> successful OTs: Superlative O&M skills, especially the orientation
>> part; and the ability to remain calm and rational when it's about to
>> hit the fan to ensure that it doesn't while also communicating with
>> and teaching a young dog. This seems to come more easily to some people
than to others, and only you can know if you have that ability or can build
it.
>>
>> Another part of the training is to prepare the pup for public access.
>> You can do a ton of groundwork, but sooner or later you will have to
>> take the dog into places of public accommodation which are generally
>> pretty high-stimulus and where there is a certain amount of pressure
>> to have your youngster be perfect. If you can do all the rest, you
>> can find the balance to pull it off. But the added hurdle there is
>> the gray areas in the law about public access and dogs in training.
>> The early exposure is important, but can you call the pup task
>> trained? And even if it is (Mitzi learned her first legit task in the
>> first month), is it ready for public access (Mitzi was totally
>> *not*!)? I used gradual exposure to similar situations and stimuli,
>> then took to sitting near outdoor eateries, then sitting in them and
>> actually enjoying a cup of coffee and stuff like that. My poodle pup
>> was pretty excitable -- as a super mellow member of her breed,
>> apparently, which scares me -- so I had to take it slow and really
>> work teaching her to keep herself calm. There was a lot of levitating
>> and wriggling. One reason I want to start a younger pup next time is
>> to get some of that conditioning in while it is still timid and
>> impressionable. Not sure my nerves will survive another mustang
>> poodle. /shudder/ For indoor trainining, I did my own PR with various
>> stores in my area and just explained what I was doing, the legalities
>> were technically there by then but not the etiquette, did they mind
>> if I brought her in when it wasn't too busy to work on that? I
>> assured them that if she got out of hand, they could have me removed
>> while promising to take her out myself if she wasn't ready to act
>> like a grown up. They were great, and this worked as I gradually got
>> her to the point I could actually buy a pack of gum without my dog
defying the laws of physics out of excitement. The wiggling and all was
embarrassing, even if everyone else thought it was adorable and hysterical.
Sigh. I need Tums thinking about it!
>> /lol/
>>
>> Change of messages I am replying to: Finish the book, Julie! I'm
>> going to need that! /grin/
>>
>> Tami
>>
>> On 08/19/2013 01:50 PM, Julie J. wrote:
>>> Yes, I do traffic training with my dogs. Traffic avoidance is one
>>> of those top level skills. There is a lot of building blocks to get
>>> there. First, the dog must understand stationary obstacles, on the
>>> left and right. Next would be maybe pedestrian traffic of a normal
>>> variety, think people at a bank, post office, office building etc.
>>> Next maybe larger crowds and more sporadic walking patterns, think
>>> shopping malls, Wal-Mart on Saturday morning, kids at a playground
>>> etc. The next level might be small wheeled obstacles. I have my
>>> Kiddo wheel our large trash bin around to do this part. It's loud
>>> so I know what's going on every step of the process. Shopping carts,
>>> responsible bicyclist, roller skaters etc. would be other examples
>>> in this category. then move up to kids on skateboards not paying
>>> too much attention, bicyclists talking on their phones, Moms with 7
>>> kids who are talking on their phone while pushing the shopping cart
>>> at Wal-Mart on the Saturday morning...you get the idea. Accidents
>>> up to this point are going to be unpleasant, but not fatal.
>>>
>>> Once the dog has a solid understanding of moving obstacles and I do
>>> mean solid, then find a friend or family member who likes you and
>>> get them to drive at you, but not to actually harm you. I start in
>>> the driveway with the car pulling in as I'm walking down the sidewalk.
>>> Move to more difficult situations, car turning right in front of you
>>> as you cross the street, car backing up, etc. Your dog already
>>> knows obstacle avoidance, the traffic is just practice with bigger
>>> and faster
>> obstacles.
>>>
>>> Monty is super traffic aware. He paused just last night in the
>>> Wal-Mart parking lot because there was a car backing out. There's
>>> an alley I have to cross on my way to work that has a building right
>>> next to it, completely blocking the driver's view of any approaching
>> pedestrians.
>>> We get a traffic check there every few weeks. There's been lots of
>>> others. The scariest one ever was at the pedestrian crosswalk. I had
>>> pushed the button and had the light to cross. We were half or a little
>>> more across when a lady ran the red light and came within inches of
>>> turning us into road pizza. Monty did this ninja maneuver to get us
>>> out of the way with about a hair's breadth to spare. One gentleman
>>> who saw it thought Monty had been hit because of the way he moved.
>>> It was that close.
>>>
>>> I know of other owner trainers who have used two way radios or other
>>> communication tools to keep in constant contact with the driver
>>> while they are training traffic. It's a good idea, but I haven't done
that.
>>> I just talk things through with the driver so I know what to expect.
>>> And of course there's going to be natural occurring traffic checks
>>> throughout the training process. For those you just have to do the
>>> best that you can. All the same safety rules apply that you would
>>> observe if you were using a cane. You just have to remember that it
>>> is your absolute responsibility to keep the team safe, not the
>>> dog's, until the very end of training when the dog shows competence
>>> in traffic. Then you are still responsible, but the dog helps. You
>>> get what
>> I mean.
>>>
>>> HTH
>>> Julie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Sherry Gomes
>>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 3:19 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Owner trainers
>>>
>>> Hey Julie,
>>>
>>> thank you for this informative message. The idea of hiring a trainer
>>> for my next dog has been brewing in my head, as I expect I won't
>>> return to GDB unless they undo some of the damage they did to their
>>> program this year. I also with my other disabilities, don't feel I
>>> could easily start over at a different program. I also don't think I
>>> could have the time to train my own dog. So, I've considered hiring
>>> someone, when the time comes. Out of curiosity, do you train your
>>> dogs to
>> do traffic checks,a nd if so, how?
>>>
>>> Thanks again for this great message. I enjoyed reading it so
>>> much.Sherry
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
>>> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 1:54 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Owner trainers
>>>
>>> I just picked out a puppy that is being privately trained for me.
>>> Coincidentally the private trainer is also blind. I wrote about it
>>> recently on the list...maybe a month ago or so.
>>>
>>> In short I was looking for a puppy who was friendly, interested in
>>> what was going on around her, bold, and confident. I relied quite a
>>> bit on the Puppy
>>>
>>> Aptitude Test, somewhat on the breeders suggestion and my own instincts.
>>> There is a significant correlation between the retrieve puppy test
>>> and successful guide dogs.
>>>
>>> I think the most difficult part of owner training is finding a puppy
>>> or dog that has the temperament to make a good guide. I've been
>>> thinking about what I want in my next dog since I finished training
>>> Monty
>> four years ago.
>>> I started looking for a breeder last fall and finally things came
>>> together this summer.
>>>
>>> The second most difficult part is raising the puppy. Monty and
>>> Belle were older puppies when I got them. They were a handful, but
>>> Miss Jetta at 8 weeks old required more work than three of Monty.
>>> Baby puppies know nothing...what to chew on, when to sleep, where to
>>> sleep, how to be on their
>>>
>>> own, where to pee...It's like having a newborn baby, except a puppy
>>> can walk, run, jump, has teeth and gets into everything. They are
>>> cute
>> though!
>>> *smile*
>>>
>>> The actual guide training is the easy part. By this point, you
>>> should
>> have
>>> a well socialized dog with nice manners who knows how to learn. It's
>> like
>>> dog college. College students want to be there. they are dedicated
>>> learners. Compare that with a preschool or kindergarten. I suppose
>>> a really good early childhood teacher could keep a neat, clean,
>>> quiet and orderly room, but mostly there's a lot of finger-paint on
>>> the walls, snot running from noses, many trips to the bathroom, lots
>>> of running and shouting
>>>
>>> and general mayhem. See what I mean? Seriously, the guide part is
>>> a breeze!
>>>
>>> So there are some options when training a new dog...you can use your
>>> cane to
>>>
>>> find obstacles and curbs so you can teach the dog what you want when
>>> you encounter them. Or you can use a familiar environment, like
>>> your front yard
>>>
>>> with maybe some set up cues to help you, like a radio on the front
>>> porch or a rug at the top of the steps or things like that. another
>>> method is to work your current guide and have the trainee tag along.
>>> The younger dog will pick up a lot from the older more experienced
>>> dog. Of course that only
>>>
>>> works if you have a current working dog.
>>>
>>> Each method has advantages and disadvantages. Probably a mix of
>>> approaches is what ends up working. I mostly introduce things in a
>>> familiar environment, then supplement with the use of a cane. I
>>> also worked Monty only in areas where I was reasonably certain of my
>>> safety given his current level of training. So if he didn't know to
>>> stop at stairs, I didn't take him to places with stairs without a
>>> back up plan, until he mastered that skill. This meant that I would
>>> prescout
>> places to train with him.
>>>
>>> No, you don't have to go through any training to owner train a guide
>>> dog. I
>>>
>>> had a lot of experience training dogs in other capacities before I
>>> trained my first guide, but zero experience training a guide dog. I
>>> have never had a guide from a program. I've trained three guides
>>> and my next guide is ten weeks old and living with her trainer. I
>>> just didn't have the energy to owner train again. It's an
>>> incredible amount of
>> time and energy.
>>>
>>> To teach a dog to stop at curbs is really easy. I approach the curb
>>> with the dog, I stop at the curb where I want the dog to stop. I
>>> prefer just a bit back from the edge, instead of having my toes hang
>>> over. The dog should
>>>
>>> stop with you because they have already been taught to walk nicely
>>> on leash.
>>>
>>> When the dog stops, click and treat or tell him good boy and give
>>> pets or whatever method you use. Rinse and repeat. The dog will
>>> learn extremely quickly that he should stop at the curb to receive
>>> his accolades. Then with
>>>
>>> the dog in harness or on leash but a bit ahead, pay special
>>> attention to any
>>>
>>> indication that the dog is slowing or stopping before you do. Click
>>> and treat the moment he shows that he is stopping or hesitating at
>>> the
>> curb.
>>> rinse and repeat until the dog takes the initiative to stop before
>>> you stop.
>>>
>>> Now take the show on the road and practice with other curbs. Once
>>> that is mastered, add in blended curbs. Teaching to stop at stairs
>>> is the next level of this training. Just keep layering skills onto
>>> the basic building blocks the dog already knows. It's like Legos!
>>>
>>> There is no book about training your own guide dog currently
>>> available. I am working on one. I had hoped to have it out about
>>> two
>> years ago now.
>>> *sigh* It is in the final revision phase. I need to fix some
>> punctuation
>>> problems. I've also been asked to include more about the actual how
>>> to parts of owner training. I haven't decided if I want to do that
>>> or
>> not.
>>> Anyway when I do finally get the book done, I will be self
>>> publishing it as an eBook. I'll let everyone know when that
>>> happens. We'll have to have a party or something. I've been
>>> working on this project for
>> forever!
>>>
>>> Julie
>>>
>>>
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