[nagdu] control was Dog problems

Tracy Carcione carcione at access.net
Wed Dec 18 19:07:23 UTC 2013


Hi Raven.
I see your point.  But stopping to rework is a kind of correction.
Actually, my previous dog used to want to stop after every up-curb in the 
City and get a bit of a pat.  She found it very rewarding. When I did it 
with Ben, a trainer told me that Ben was the kind of dog who saw stopping as 
unrewarding, and boogying down the road as a reward, so now I give him a 
quick pat and Good Boy while we keep moseying.

Re sniffing, while I suppose that for a casual sniff, my speaking to Ben and 
telling him Touch might get his attention.  Or it might not.
Your approach is interesting, and worth some thought, but mine has worked 
for me for over 30 years, and I'm not too likely to just toss it in favor of 
something else, just for a lark.
Tracy

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Raven Tolliver" <ravend729 at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] control was Dog problems


> Tracy,
> That is what my school taught, and still teaches to my knowledge. This
> is my issue with that approach: why even give the correction when you
> can just cue your dog to do something different? For instance, let's
> say my dog runs a curb. GEB taught me to correct, rework, and praise
> for a successful reworking. But why even correct? If I skip the
> correction, heel him to my side, and rework the error, my dog still
> gets the same information. You botched that one, so let's do it again,
> the right way this time.
> For another example, let's say I'm standing in line and my dog is
> sniffing the person in front of me. Certain trainers might say: "give
> a correction, tell him to sit, then praise." But why give a
> correction? Why not just hold out my fist and say: "Kipling, touch!"
> Then praise or treat him for obeying. I can skip the correction step
> and still effectively communicate to my dog to stop doing that and to
> do something else. See what I mean? I do not have to correct my dog,
> or any dog, for the naughty behavior. I simply note the behavior, and
> cue them to perform a more desirable behavior, then reward them.
> I'm not saying correction doesn't have its place. But most of the
> time, it is not necessary.
>
> On 12/18/13, Sherry Gomes <sherriola at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Exactly what I was taught too. I don't have a problem with a suitable
>> well-timed correction, as long as the follow up and eventual praise and
>> maybe a food reward is there too.  I don't think of it as control or
>> forcing
>> my will on my dog. my employer forces their will I suppose, because the
>> punishment if I didn't do my job would be the job loss. Life is full of a
>> correction and reward system. Granted, I get easy to manage dogs who need
>> little to no correction and most of the time a firm quiet no will resolve
>> anything. My dogs get far more positive reinforcement than they do
>> correction, but when they need a bit of correction they get it. My style 
>> is
>> a mix of correction and reward and my dogs aren't unhappy or only working
>> for me out of fear.
>>
>> Sherry
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 11:11 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] control was Dog problems
>>
>> Hi Raven.
>> I wonder if your trainer skipped an essential point, or maybe your school
>> does things differently than what I was taught.
>> I was taught that correction is a 3-step process: correct, then tell the
>> dog
>>
>> what to do instead, and praise him for doing it.  Dog is leaping around:
>> Ben, no.  Ben, sit.  Good boy!
>> Tracy
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Raven Tolliver" <ravend729 at gmail.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 12:40 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] control was Dog problems
>>
>>
>>> Julie,
>>> I could not agree with you more. People go on about how they need to
>>> control their animals, rather than motivating them to make the right
>>> choices. I think it's definitely a difference between
>>> -correction-based methods and positive reinforcement training. Many of
>>> the schools still make it seem like we must dominate our dogs. These
>>> dogs are not trying to dominate anyone. They are looking for guidance,
>>> and all they want to do is please us. But popular belief is still to
>>> correct your dog for doing wrong rather than motivate and encourage
>>> them to do what is right.
>>> Also, schools still make it seem like collar corrections fix problems,
>>> when they do not. All a correction does is communicate to dogs that
>>> they did something wrong, it does not tell them what they can do
>>> instead that will yield a reward or a more positive response from the
>>> handler. Corrections make a dog afraid to disobey, rather than
>>> motivated or willing to obey.
>>> I too hold the philosophy of teaching self-control rather than just
>>> controlling a dog. There is a huge difference. But people want the
>>> training methods that seem easiest and quickest--all force and
>>> corrections, and little to no rewards. What's in it for the dog? Make
>>> training fun, make it enjoyable, and make it just as much about the
>>> dog as it is about you. Dog training is not about controlling your
>>> dog, it is about motivating and encouraging a dog to do the right
>>> thing, and it is about interacting in a way that demonstrates
>>> understanding, patience, consistency, and enjoyment.
>>> Why would a dog obey if it does not yield a reward? How can a dog
>>> enjoy working, training, or obedience if there is nothing in it for
>>> him?
>>> I did not understand these things until I actually started training
>>> dogs--until I was told that I absolutely had to use methods that were
>>> opposite of the ones I learned at my guide dog program. Negative
>>> punishment and positive reinforcement, without positive punishment or
>>> physical corrections. I did not believe these methods would work. But
>>> then I was able to implement the new things I learned, and it was
>>> eye-opening. I took the things I learned from my training sessions and
>>> started using them with my guide dog. I saw my pessimistic golden
>>> transform into an optimistic dog. I enjoyed working with my dog, even
>>> if he made a mistake or did something wrong. I enjoyed teaching him
>>> what was right rather than correcting him for what he did wrong. I
>>> really think that if guide dog schools relied more on clicker training
>>> and positive reinforcement, and less on correction-based methods, it
>>> would eliminate a lot of the frustration that comes with getting a new
>>> dog. At least, I think it would have for me personally.
>>>
>>> On 12/18/13, Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> This thread has me thinking about how I interact with my dogs.
>>>> Specifically
>>>>
>>>> I am pondering the commonly used  term "control".  Often we are advised
>>>> to
>>>> control our dogs or keep them under control.  Maybe I think too much,
>>>> which
>>>>
>>>> long time listers will be nodding their heads about right now, still I
>>>> can't
>>>>
>>>> help myself.
>>>>
>>>> What do we really mean by control?  It seems to me that there is a
>>>> strong
>>>> sense of superiority, a feeling that we need to dominant another being.
>>>> Is
>>>>
>>>> that what we really want?
>>>>
>>>> This morning I'm thinking I'd rather encourage my dogs to have self
>>>> control.
>>>>
>>>> then they can go about their business unsupervised because I trust 
>>>> them.
>>>>
>>>> I
>>>>
>>>> don't want to micromanage their lives, any more than I want someone
>>>> breathing down my neck every minute.
>>>>
>>>> I see control as an imposition of my will.  I don't want to do that. 
>>>> I
>>>> want my dogs to have as much freedom as is possible, while still living
>>>> in
>>>> harmony in my house.  It's the same for everyone that lives here, and 
>>>> to
>>>>
>>>> a
>>>> lesser degree those who come to visit.  I want them to choose to do the
>>>> right thing, because it is what they want, not because I said so.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps this is the fundamental difference between punishment based
>>>> training
>>>>
>>>> and clicker training?  I don't know.
>>>>
>>>> Julie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Raven
>>>
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>>
>>
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>
>
> -- 
> Raven
>
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